Concussion with Professor of Neurotrauma Melinda Fitzgerald

Professor of Neurotrauma, (Melinda) Lindy Fitzgerald is on a mission to improve outcomes for people who have experienced traumatic injury to their central nervous system.

Lindy and her team at Connectivity Traumatic Brain Injury Australia have developed a free online concussion short course to help you and I identify and manage concussion to prevent long term issues. 

It's a relevant and important chat – for the sporty, the aged, those suffering repeated injury from domestic violence or really anyone who sustains a knock to the head. 

Duration: 36 minutes.

Links:

Connectivity Traumatic Brain Injury

Free Concussion short course

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Transcript

Lindy Fitzgerald: 0:05

One in five and estimates vary depending upon the population that you're studying. Some estimates are actually a bit higher than that. Those one in five people will go on to have continuing symptoms. It's called persisting post concussion symptoms. And those symptoms can last for quite a while it can be one to three months, even a year or longer. So we here in my role as CEO of Connectivity, Traumatic Brain Injury Australia, we are hearing from people who have that lived experience of concussion, who still are suffering the effects years later.

Sonia Nolan: 0:40

Concussion is our conversation today and I'm joined by Professor of Neurotrauma, Melinda Fitzgerald. Lindy and her team have developed a free online concussion short course, to help you and I identify and manage concussion to prevent long term issues. It's a relevant and important chat, for the sporty, the aged, those suffering repeated injury from domestic violence, or really anyone who has sustained a knock to the head. I'm Sonia Nolan, and I invite you to join Lindy and I around My Warm Table. Lindy, thank you so much for joining me around my warm table, I have been fascinated by the work that you're doing. You're a professor of neuro trauma, and you are on a mission to improve outcomes for patients who have experienced traumatic injury to their central nervous system. What does that mean?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 1:30

So following an accident, like a car accident or a fall, bang their head, they fall over. And in that process, the brain suffers an injury. So various elements of the brain can be twisted, or cells are broken. And so that causes a cascade of events that spread through the rest of the brain tissue and, and cause loss of function, those cells that no longer do the job that they're put there for. And so people suffer functional consequences, social difficulties, and all the resultant financial implications for the individual and for our healthcare system and society as a whole.

Sonia Nolan: 2:11

It's just so far reaching, isn't it? And do you delve into the areas of neuroplasticity because that's something we keep hearing over and over again, is that something that you know, you factor into your work?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 2:22

My research in particular is not so much on neuroplasticity, but every treatment strategy relies upon that concept of use it or lose it. So we need to be doing the sorts of activities pushing ourselves to try and do things at least following any kind of injury or damage to the brain. Be it from stroke off from a physical injury, like what we're talking about today, we need to be able to wire the brain to do the activities, the more often you do an activity, the stronger those neural connections are, and the more likely they are to become second nature.

Sonia Nolan: 2:57

So you talked about accidents, and they're just so common in the home out there. It's so easy that one day, everything's perfectly fine. And the next day, sadly, your whole life has changed. And you've got to rebuild. Tell me about the sort of patients that you work with?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 3:12

Well, as a researcher, I don't actually work directly with patients all that often our research team do recruit participants to some of our observational clinical trials that's some of the work that we do. But what I really start am starting to get to understand in our work, as we do consult with people who have experienced these injuries, that the nature of their difficulties following these injuries is really diverse. So some people will have persistent headaches, other will, others will have like a brain fog and inability to sort of just think clearly and concentrate, you know, they used to be able to run numbers in their heads and they no longer can. It might be in more severe cases where people lose the ability to speak, or to communicate in the way that they did before it might be a complete aphasia or lack of ability to speak or communicate. Or else it could just be more subtle, you know, not being able to find the right word in certain situations. There can be movement difficulties, and you know, in all sorts of manners, visual disturbances, that can be associated with a migraine or not. And the lack of emotional regulation is the one that you hear a lot from carers.

Sonia Nolan: 4:25

So tell me about that ... lack of emotional regulation is that that people get angry or they get sad, what sort of emotions do they feel?

Unknown: 4:34

Well, the full gamut. So it just might people you hear reports of people not necessarily being the person that they were, they're not responding to a situation in the way that they used to. There might be a lack of that self control. Self awareness is another really biggie because people might not necessarily understand that they have changed and so that obviously becomes very problematic and in some cases quite tragic for the family because they have lost the person in their essence that they knew and loved. So that's a whole new level of adaptation and and love that they have to go go through

Sonia Nolan: 5:16

dynamics because of it.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 5:19

Yeah, that's correct. Yeah.

Sonia Nolan: 5:20

One of the areas that you do a lot of work in is concussion. Tell me about that. Because that and we were right in the middle of footy season here in Australia, we, you know, we all love our footy or our rugby, and those contact sports. Often, you hear about concussion. And it seems to be something that people almost brush off and just say, Ah, he or she'll be right, they'll come good. What's the real issues that we should be aware of with concussion?

Unknown: 5:53

Yeah, and it's a great question. It's very topical, obviously. So with concussion, it's important to recognise that most people will be fine. You know, following a concussion, if they follow their doctor's advice and gradually return to their activities. It's a very set. Now, it's really increasingly well understood that there's a good way to care for people for on a concussion, there's a recommendation now to have the first day or two resting, avoiding screens is a good idea in those first two days. And then a gradual return to normal activities where you just do a little bit more each day, just stop to the level at which your symptoms come back, and then you stop. And then the next day, you might be able to do just a little bit more until your symptoms come back, and then you stop. And so there's that great sense of a graded return to activity be that school be that sport, be that activities of normal life. So if you follow that pattern, then most people will recover perfectly well, unfortunately, one in five, and estimates vary, depending upon the population that you're studying. Some estimates are actually a bit higher than that. Those one in five people will go on to have continuing symptoms. It's called persisting post concussion symptoms. And those symptoms can last for quite a while it can be one to three months, even a year or longer. So we here in my role as CEO of Connectivity, Traumatic Brain Injury Australia, we are hearing from people who have that lived experience of concussion, who still are suffering the effects years later. Now some of that can be attributed to not really handling it well in those first few weeks. And so certainly, the chances of having persistent symptoms are less if you follow that nice graded return to activities.

Sonia Nolan: 7:41

So that's really important that I guess the first aid and the first awareness of what you might be experiencing concussion, and then to take it easy, like you described,

Lindy Fitzgerald: 7:51

that's exactly right. And so that's a lot of the focus of what we're doing in our outreach activities, is to raise awareness of traumatic brain injury and concussion in particular, because if people have that awareness, they know, take it easy, seek medical advice, have a graded return to activity, they'll probably be fine. So it is really important, sort of a big focus of what we're doing is around that raising awareness.

Sonia Nolan: 8:14

So how are you raising awareness? Because I think you've just recently launched something on your website to help people and sporting clubs and other community groups understand concussion and their first aid responses.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 8:26

Yeah, exactly. We're very proud at Connectivity to have just launched our Concussion Online Short Course. So this is a course you just go to our website and log into it. It's free. And it is designed to be for people who might be a first responder following concussion injuries. So it might be for football coaches, for umpires for mums and dads on the sidelines in the sporting context, also for aged care workers, because there's a big peak of elderly people who suffer these kinds of injuries with force and it's not necessarily always recognised. So ideal for those people in emergency departments or anywhere in the community, where people might be a first responder following a concussion. And it just gives them those basic understandings of what to do that graded return to activity. And there's a whole heap of downloadable content as well so people can download fact sheets and so forth. And it's all free. You can make a donation if you find if you'd like to have a completion certificate that can be arranged with a small fee. So we would love to see it really broadly taken up by teachers, coaches, you know, people right through our community, who are looking after people who experience a concussion,

Sonia Nolan: 9:41

We'll put those links on the show notes so that everyone can go straight to that website and and undertake that very free, very important, Concussion training course.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 9:51

Excellent. Thank you so much.

Sonia Nolan: 9:52

Oh, it's been my pleasure. Lindy one thing is how do you know that it's a concussion you're dealing with?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 9:58

Well, there are some quite set parameters by which we can tell that someone has experienced a concussion, obviously, it's associated with someone having a hit to the head or hit to the body that's caused the head to experience, sort of a force to it. And then the majority of the symptoms around just a change mental or neurological functioning. So you feel different, you might feel dizzy, you might, you may have lost consciousness, not necessarily people can be experienced a concussion without losing consciousness or being knocked out. And there is a constellation of symptoms that people would experience following a concussion. So headache is the most common one. So a persistent sort of headache that doesn't go away, any kind of changes to vision or speech, speech slurring, or anything like that. Alterations to sleep as time passes, alterations to whether people have sort of difficulty thinking through that confusion, or that brain fog we spoke about earlier. Those are all symptoms of concussion, and even neck pain and which can be associated with whiplash or migraine. You know, these are the sort of constellation of symptoms that can affect people.

Sonia Nolan: 11:09

Can you see by eye dilation? Is that another? I don't know why I'm thinking of that. But that's something that that was taught to me a long time ago was something about you look at their eyes, and you can see whether they're concussed or not.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 11:21

I wish it was that simple.

Sonia Nolan: 11:23

Lindy, you've just spoilt all the other medical training I've had!

Lindy Fitzgerald: 11:26

sorry about that. I know a lot of the medical shows they'll shine a light. Oh, yes.

Sonia Nolan: 11:32

Yes, yeah, it's not that. Let's debunk that right now.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 11:35

For concussion, we can debunk it. The most severe injuries, yes, you can do what's called blowing a pupil where the pupils don't dilate in the way they should, and they don't act in concert, that's an indication of a much more severe injury and hospitalisation is absolutely necessary.

Sonia Nolan: 11:51

Right? Okay, well, that's really good to know.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 11:54

And indeed, if I can just follow on from that, it's really important to seek medical advice to rule out a more severe injury. So if some of those signs and symptoms are on the severe end, then people would probably have a CT scan, just to make sure that there isn't a more severe injury, like a bleed on the brain, which would require much more intensive management.

Sonia Nolan: 12:14

Yeah, very good points. So tell me more about aged care, because that was an interesting point you raised that sometimes, or often, I guess, that people in an aged care home or just even living at home have a fall when you hear about the fall. And it is, you know, often the start of of deteriorating experiences. So that is something that we need to really look out for, for our senior members of society.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 12:38

Exactly. And it's actually quite difficult because the, the manifestations if you like, of a concussion can be quite similar to those experiences that someone as they're getting older might be having anyway, with dementia, or a mild cognitive impairment or so forth, it can look very much like a concussion. And so someone might have experienced concussion and you, you brush it off, because it's Oh, it's just because they're elderly. And they're not thinking straight. But yeah, there does need to be more awareness so that we can actually recognise when a concussion has occurred in an older person, and treat them appropriately in a similar way to your work to a younger person to minimise those effects being exacerbated, and also making sure that they've haven't experienced a more severe injury. So there's a tendency, I think, to sort of just put them back in bed and dust them off and not give them quite the care, perhaps that someone who is a younger person might have received. So I think it is really important to raise awareness in the aged care industry, both in residential aged care and and community based care. And that's a body of work we're just embarking upon at the moment, we're going to generate some new materials purpose built for the aged care sector. We're very pleased to be supported in that by the Arcare Family Foundation too who has sponsored us or donated funds for us to be able to do this work and spread it more broadly through the sector. So yeah, it's a really important area for us.

Sonia Nolan: 14:01

And is that aged care concussion captured in your free course online?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 14:07

It is, but it's not focused specifically on that. So I think our next step is to start making generating some materials that are specific for particular sectors. So what our courses is relevant across the board... Yeah, but it probably there is benefit in having additional materials specific for those.

Sonia Nolan: 14:27

But there's lots more to know.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 14:28

That's exactly right.

Sonia Nolan: 14:34

Lindy, you mentioned the website that you've got, tell me about some of the resources that are available on the website.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 14:41

Yeah, we've we've put together a real wealth of information, divided up both for people who might have experienced these injuries or their carers, some coping strategies, advice and tips on what they might be experiencing further information so that they can understand the symptoms that they're experiencing. And we also have a lot of information for clinicians, people who might be caring or responding to these injuries. And so guidelines, health care pathways, links to appropriate resources that are best practice and evidence based so that clinicians can get the most up to date information. So we really encourage people to visit the website, because it's got a real wealth of information there lots of things to explore.

Sonia Nolan: 15:26

Oh, it sounds like it. Now, what's the website address?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 15:28

So it's connectivity.org.au.

Sonia Nolan: 15:31

Great. We'll also put that in the show notes. It just sounds like your team has been working really hard for a long period of time really understanding the issues and understanding how the research you can do you are doing can translate into the everyday actions that we can all take at the other end to make it easier all around in the future.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 15:51

That's exactly right. It's implementation of the research. That's the gap that often happens, great research is done, but then it doesn't actively benefit people in the community. And that's our goal.

Sonia Nolan: 16:04

People who've been playing sport for years and years and years and and probably as children suffered lots of concussion, and now they're adults who are in their 40s 50s 60s. Has there been research to see whether there's been some ongoing brain injury as a result of all the hits and knocks they've had on their sporting days?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 16:23

Yeah, look, there has been quite a bit of research. And they're increasing numbers of reports coming out, showing that there do appear to be long term changes following multiple concussion injuries, there is a bit of a relationship that's supported by the literature indicating increased risk for neurodegenerative diseases, if people have experienced multiple concussions throughout their lifespan, particularly if those concussions were not well managed. And people go straight back in and you know, that you hear the horror stories of, you know, sports people in particular, going straight back in the on the same game, even so, you know, it is starting to come home to roost, certainly within the American football league that's now very well recognised with the class actions and so forth, that there is a serious consequence of experiencing multiple concussions and which are not well managed. Unfortunately, we're not able to say, as there's a set number of concussions, and that's your number, and you once you've had that, you should really make sure you don't risk any further damage. It's not as simple as that. So which is a pity, but it's it's a case, and so they're on your toes. It's an ever changing face. It's so there are people who have had, you know, over five concussions in there, and they're fine. So it, it does depend on the individual, the nature of the injury, the severity of the injury, research in that space is quite complicated, because if they're concerned that they are suffering or their family are concerned that they're suffering symptoms, as they move into advancing age, then they're more likely for that person's brain to be donated and more likely for that person to be studied. And so that has led to a bit of a bias in the field where people are being picked up as having chronic traumatic encephalopathy or CTE. So what you hear about the Will Smith concussion movie was all about CTE. And so there is a bit of a danger, though, because if you're only sampling those people, those studies aren't particularly well controlled, because they're not sampling people who might have had a similar number of hits, but is not experiencing symptoms and have not decided to donate their brain to these sorts of studies. Because with CTE, you can only really diagnose it on by cutting up a brain. So it's post mortem. So the studies are a bit fraught, but there's probably enough evidence now to indicate that certainly, it's not a good idea to have multiple concussions in terms of later life and later wellbeing.

Sonia Nolan: 18:50

And if you are experiencing concussions to, you know, do that gradient sort of return back into activity, as you described earlier, that's gonna be really important in that first aid and in your own journey of health.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 19:02

That's exactly right. And what we see is that the people who have experienced five, six or more concussions, they take longer to recover. And so that's where it must not be rushed. And so those, you know, there probably comes a time in elite sportsman's career or sports, woman's career, when they've had so many concussions and it's taken so long to come back that they have to make that value judgement.

Sonia Nolan: 19:28

Lindy, you're also doing some work in Aboriginal research and Aboriginal community?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 19:33

Yeah, that's right. What we are really trying to do is make sure that we raise awareness of traumatic brain injury and concussion in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities. So as part of Connectivity's efforts, we've developed some advertisements, that screening on both TV and radio and also being circulated through social media, and these ads have been generated by Galari Media. So it's generated with using Aboriginal actors, filmed on country using language that is appropriate, culturally safe, and so forth. And so those ads screening now, and they're all about raising awareness in Aboriginal communities around not only the need to seek medical care following concussion and the need to use seatbelts, because that can be a big preventative strategy that can prevent help to prevent these injuries, but also around domestic violence, which is, we're really hearing is a big contributor to the these injuries, the incidence of these

Sonia Nolan: 20:28

It's interesting, you know, you've mentioned not injuries. wearing seatbelts could cause a concussion, if you have an accident, obviously, the sporting field which we're all familiar with. Domestic violence, now, that's another really interesting point. And and of course, that's not limited to any particular community. It is so widespread, it's very sadly in society. So that's another area of great importance when you're looking at your research.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 20:50

Absolutely. Because this is another area where repeated concussion becomes a real problem. So repeated concussion, people think, oh, it's only about the sports people. It's not. It's about people who live in a violent environment. And so yeah, you get these repeated injuries and and it is a huge problem.

Sonia Nolan: 21:06

Is there more traumatic brain injury today in 2022, then there was perhaps 20, 30, 40 years ago,

Lindy Fitzgerald: 21:13

It's a difficult question to answer, because the way of collecting the data has changed over time. So there is much more awareness of the milder injuries, they were very much just sort of brushed aside. So we are now starting to collect data on concussion, which does indicate that there's been a marked increase in incidence. But yes, there is a generally a trend to increasing numbers of traumatic brain injuries of all severity. And, yeah, it's a global problem.

Sonia Nolan: 21:43

So you wear a lot of hats.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 21:45

I do.

Sonia Nolan: 21:45

You do. And you mentioned Connectivity, and you obviously work here at Curtin University. So we're sitting around your table in your office here at Curtin University, and you do many other things. Run us through some of the hats that you wear Lindy.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 22:00

Okay.

Sonia Nolan: 22:02

We've got time, I've got a lot of tape here.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 22:04

Good. So I am jointly appointed by Curtin University and the Perron Institute for Neurological and Translational Sciences. So that is as a researcher in traumatic brain injury, in particular neuro trauma more generally. So I conduct and lead a research team that are doing a range of different research studies, both on the mechanisms of injury sort of fine grained cellular sort of experiments, and then also looking at how we might better predict the outcome following traumatic brain injury of all severities. So we're fortunate to be funded by the Medical Research Future Fund, which is the federal government initiative to fund research in traumatic brain injury. So that's sort of my research hat. As part of that I do Chair the expert working group for the mission for traumatic brain injury, which is the national funding initiative. That's my research side of what I do. And as as an adjunct to that, and sort of implementing that research and the research of everyone in the country. I'm the CEO of Connectivity, Traumatic Brain Injury, Australia, have a fantastic team who are doing a great job of spreading the word around TBI. And then in addition to that, I'm also the Dean of Research for the Faculty of Health Sciences. And I'm just about to finish that job in a couple of weeks, actually. Yes. And so I'm moving into the role of Associate Deputy Vice Chancellor of Research for Curtin University, which will be a full time role, but with some time aside from my research,

Sonia Nolan: 23:28

congratulations,

Lindy Fitzgerald: 23:29

thank you. Thank you. So yeah, that's sort of most of my hats. And, and I'm very privileged, very lucky to be able to do the sort of work that I enjoy.

Sonia Nolan: 23:38

I want to just take you back a moment there, you've said, you're really lucky. I also want to just explore with you how hard you've worked. And also, we had a quick chat when we first met Lindy about returning to work after raising children. And that has been your story in that you took some time out to raise your children, and then you reentered the workplace. But sadly, this is a story that many of us women face is that when we do choose to step out of the workplace, or to perhaps dial it back a little bit or to do some consultancy or work part time or whatever the iteration looks like. We then find it really interesting and challenging to actually find a job match which will match our capability and capacity and our brain and our abilities to really contribute at a high level. Because we've made that decision to step out. So stepping back in is really hard sometimes. Tell me your story.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 24:35

Yes, it's I I'm probably a little bit unusual in the research space for the journey that I've taken. I did after I finished my PhD I worked for five years in a range of postdoctoral positions on the east coast of Australia. And then I left research and looked after my children. My two boys were born so I took a career brake for eight years. As it became apparent, they were heading back to school, or heading to school. And so I felt like I could return back to the workforce. At the time I knew someone who offered me a role, which would be part time, which would suit me. And it was interesting because it was so called everything I would want, it was quite, you know, well paid, and it was working as a researcher, but I was not able in that role to actually contribute to the full extent that I could intellectually it was actively discouraged. And so I realised at that time and point that I really did want to do this, you know, I really did want to get back into research, run my own research team, set my own research questions, and have that independence as a researcher. Before then I had never really been sure about that. I wasn't even sure I'd return to science. I didn't think it could be done. And without knowledge, I left that first role. After three months, it was a bit of a false start. And I took a moment to think okay, well, what do I really want to do what is really interesting to me, and the brain immediately leapt to mind. It wasn't even an area that I'd worked in before.

Sonia Nolan: 26:11

What was your PhD on?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 26:12

leukaemia research. Yeah. And so, it was quite naive foolhardiness, I thought, Oh, how hard can it be, I'll just go into neuroscience. They're all cells, that's easy. So I did a bit of background digging and realised where the neuroscience laboratories were in in Perth. So I walked into the office of as it happened, Lyn Beazley

Sonia Nolan: 26:35

who we've spoken to on My Warm Table, and she's been extraordinary and generous in her and in helping us understand the brain. So that's amazing that you connected with Lyn, she's a very generous woman.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 26:47

Absolutely. And on that day, it so happened that she had some contract research for which they were looking for someone who had a particular set of skills, which happened to be the skills that I had, it didn't need to be neuroscience. So I learned neuroscience on the job from that time onward. That was in 2006. And I started at halftime at point six, and then went up to point eight, so eventually, point nine by 2009, I was full time. So I was really, really fortunate because it was an environment where there was no pressure to have to go back full time, I could make that journey on my own terms. And so that's what I did. And so now, you know, it's, I feel myself to be very, very fortunate, because I don't think that is the path that many people are able to take.

Sonia Nolan: 27:35

Well, it's also having the courage to take that path too. And also being so dissatisfied in what you're doing that you think like no, I've got to do something more. There's a real calling inside to do something more so well done. And I know that you go and you speak with other researchers or you speak to other women about that career, that intentional career break, that then led you back into the workplace afterwards. And that the intentionality of going to find something that was really going to match with your capabilities and intellect.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 28:04

Yeah, well, that's right. And I sort of do feel quite passionately about supporting other women and how, because when you have taken a career break there is as a researcher, our track record is really, really important. It's how we need to sell our good we are in order to get money and funds to be able to support our next research project. And so if you have a big career break, you don't have anything to demonstrate your capacity and capability. So I became what I refer to as the 'Queen of the career break statement' where I could step out the relative to opportunity considerations and say, Okay, no, you because I've had this career break, you can equate that amount of publications and sort of really build that story, build that narrative around the fact that yes, there's a break, but I still have the capacity to do this.

Sonia Nolan: 28:58

Fantastic. That's really inspirational. And also on My Warm Table we've talked to someone who's a career transition coach who really helps people to return to the workplace after either serious illness or after the age of 50. And, and that wasn't necessarily your story at all, but certainly coming back into the workplace after a life decision or life moment, it's a whole different way of selling yourself, isn't it?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 29:21

it is.

Sonia Nolan: 29:26

Can you leave us with a few top things we should know about the brain?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 29:31

That it's marvellous

Sonia Nolan: 29:32

It is marvellous, isn't it?

Lindy Fitzgerald: 29:33

I just think there's no limit to what it can do. You know, and we need to protect it. So if you're someone who has any kind of play over people's exposure and management following a head injury, just the importance of seeking medical care, doing what the clinician says, and

Sonia Nolan: 29:57

you say that with a wry smile that people are not doing what they're told? Well, it is hard, I'm coming back to one of the things to help with concussion recoveries stay off your screens for a couple of days. So that was one of the first things that you said today.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 30:12

That's right.

Sonia Nolan: 30:12

So that is hard for people. And that means off your iPhones, off your tablets, off your TV's off your video games, it means all of that, black that out for a good two to three days,

Lindy Fitzgerald: 30:25

oh one to two days,

Sonia Nolan: 30:27

I would tell my children two to three days. Okay, one to two days,

Lindy Fitzgerald: 30:31

there is actually it's, it's a bit of a balance, because what you do here is that the young people are so connected via those technologies, that you actually risk them going into a bit of withdrawal and depression, if you take away the screens for too long. Okay, so it is actually a balance. So, you know, in actual fact, to go off those things for a week is not necessarily a good idea. There's some research starting to emerge that it can be detrimental just because of that lack of social interaction. So it's just one to two days just minimise the screen time. And yeah, it's a good idea.

Sonia Nolan: 31:07

And why is that? is that because your eyes are moving a lot. And there's that what is what is the effect of screens on our brains.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 31:14

So it's probably not entirely well understood as to what the effect is, but it will be the flickering light, it will be the concentration, it's that narrowed down concentration, you are really very actively using your brain when you're looking at a screen. There's there's all sorts of inputs, there's flashes, there's all sorts of firing off that goes in your brain as a consequence of looking at moving images. So it's, it's that it's like if you strain your muscle, pull a hamstring or something on the on the sporting field, you don't then go off and try and run, you've got to rest that part of your body that has experienced that trauma.

Sonia Nolan: 31:51

And in this case, with a concussion, it's the brain. Any other little tidbits of things that you've learned along the way is and I love the fact that you were your PhD was in leukaemia, and that then you just decided one day, I'm going to be a neuroscientist. But tell me more about what you were discovering in those early days. Were there some really wow, aha moments in that time?

Unknown: 32:12

There was actually one of the things that I love cells, I'm never happier than when I am looking down the microscope looking at cells, and all the different scientific fields I've worked in, I've had that as the commonality. So I'd love to look at cells. And what we what we realised in my team early on, is the importance of a particular network of cells. So you've got nerve cells there, they've got like a central cell body, it's called and then long projections that come out, and those long projections touch other nerve cells. And that's how they all send signals. But in support of that, there's a network of supporting cells that are called astrocytes. And they're Astro star shaped. And so they form this network, and they all touch each other all over the brain or any kind of nerve that you've got actually any any nerve of the central nervous system. So these astrocytes, they all touch each other, and they all support the nerve cells. And so what we realised is that following injury, there's a really, really fast spread of damage that goes through this astrocyte network. And it moves really fast like it moves millimetres in minutes. So these changes of dynamics and chemicals and damage responses in these cells spread through this network of those supporting cells. So these cells are supposed to be protecting and their function is they are also the source of spreading damage early after injury. And that to me was a real aha moment.

Sonia Nolan: 33:42

Yeah, as you said millimetres in minutes. So that that is fast

Lindy Fitzgerald: 33:46

on cellular terms. It's fast.

Sonia Nolan: 33:47

Wow. Okay, and so avoiding and protecting is the most important thing so that when we're preventing that damage that quickly Yeah. Oh, it's so interesting. And the brain just seems to come up every every conversation I'm having almost Lindy the brain is coming up in some way. And I think we're just we're finally learning so much more about it. And it is a new area of discovery and a new area of interest for people because they're starting to join the dots that the brain is actually everything used to be the heart wasn't it we always thought the heart is the most important organ in the body but it is actually the brain That is fascinating.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 34:23

Yeah, it's a new frontier we still don't know What is the thought? what makes a thought we don't know what a thought is, I put

Sonia Nolan: 34:28

Yes.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 34:28

I don't know. find that personally extremely fascinating.

Sonia Nolan: 34:34

I don't know either. And, you know, you can get again philosophical there and it's conscious and consciousness and soul and you know, where does it all? How does that all manifest with the brain? Yeah,

Lindy Fitzgerald: 34:44

that's right, that sort of nexus between brain and mind and what is it a chemical reaction and what is highest emotion?

Sonia Nolan: 34:51

It's just fascinating. What how lucky you are to be working in this field. You did say you were lucky. I agree. You're lucky but you're also an incredible woman. Lindy, thank you so much for your time today I've thoroughly enjoyed learning about the brain.

Lindy Fitzgerald: 35:02

You're most welcome.

Sonia Nolan: 35:08

You've been listening to My Warm Table with Sonia Nolan, in Italian a'tavola calda' is a warm and welcoming table where you can share big ideas, friendship, laughter and life. So much happens around the kitchen table, and I wanted to amplify it here in this podcast. My aim is to feed your mind and soul through smart conversations with heart. No topic is off limits, but good table manners rule. I hope you'll join us each week as we set the table for my extraordinary guests who will let you feast on a deep knowledge, life experiences and wise insights. Let's keep the conversation flowing. Please subscribe to the My Warm Table podcast and share it with your friends and networks. Perhaps if they're new to podcasting, take a moment to show them how to download and subscribe so they don't miss an episode either. I'd also love you to join our community on Facebook. You'll find the group at My Warm Table Podcast. Your support is very much appreciated. So that together we can eat, think and be merry