My Warm Table ... with Sonia
My Warm Table ... with Sonia
Thriving in Your Second Spring with Lois Keay-Smith
Unlock the secrets to navigating your "second spring" with career counsellor and reinvention coach Lois Keay-Smith. Lois joins us to share modern job search strategies and the importance of staying active and connected. This episode is packed with actionable insights that will empower you to embrace your next chapter with strength and purpose.
Lois shares invaluable insights on recognizing and managing perimenopause and menopause symptoms, and how these often-overlooked changes can impact your career and personal life.
We'll also dive into the revolutionary ideas presented in "The 100-Year Life" by Linda Gratton and Andrew Scott, challenging the standard concepts of retirement and exploring the potential longevity of modern life.
We also tackle the complex experiences of women dealing with redundancy and ageism to the emotional toll of job loss, this episode offers practical strategies to navigate these challenges with resilience and confidence.
Hear personal stories and expert advice on self-care, from nutrition and exercise to finding medical professionals who specialize in women's health during menopause, ensuring you maintain your well-being through this transformative phase.
Join us around the Warm Table for a conversation you won't want to miss!
Books Lois recommends:
- Revolting Women, Lucy Ryan
- Working Identity, Herminia Ibarra
- Magnificent Midlife, Rachel Lancaster
- The New Menopause, Dr May Claire Haver
- The Late Bloomer, Clarissa Pinkola Estes (Audio series, same author of Women Who Run with the Wolves)
- Second Spring, Kate Codrington
- Menopausing, Davina McCall
- The Upgrade, Louann Brizendine
- Women Rowing North, Mary Pipher
Warm thanks to:
Sponsor: Females Over Forty-five Fitness in Victoria Park
Sound Engineering: Damon Sutton
Music: William A Spence
... and all our generous and inspiring guests around the warm table this season!
Please rate and review this podcast - it helps to share the love with others!
You can also follow My Warm Table on social media and join the conversation:
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Catch up on all episodes. You'll find My Warm Table on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Buzzsprout and more ...
My Warm Table, translated into Italian is Tavola Calda. These were the words my Papa used to describe a table of good friends, good food and good conversation. I always aim to create a tavola calda in my life and I hope this podcast encourages you to do so too!
I've definitely started to notice there are some common themes. There's health changes, there's sometimes health challenges as well at this age and stage, but also, just you know that kind of thinking about who am I, where am I going next? And, yeah, you know whether work that I've chosen or fallen into or maybe accommodated for family or other reasons, whether that's actually going to sustain me into the next stage.
Speaker 2:Thanks for joining me, sonia Nolan, around the warm table, or the tavola calda as my Italian papa used to call a welcoming table of acceptance, positivity and curiosity. My Warm Table podcast aims to create that and more, as we amplify stories of Western Australians making our communities better. My Warm Table, season 3, is proud to be sponsored by Females Over 45 Fitness, with a studio in Victoria Park and also online all over Australia. So now please take a seat and join us for season three as we explore stories of hope. I'm delighted to welcome Lois K Smith back to the warm table.
Speaker 2:Lois is a career counsellor and reinvention coach. Over the last two decades she's helped people find confidence through their confusion and work out their why and their way into the next chapter of their work life. You may remember Lois from season one of my Warm Table podcast, when we talked about her Churchill Fellowship, a prestigious opportunity which she used to research how to help adults navigate their career interruption, career reinvention and work life after cancer. It was a great discussion, so make sure you check back through the Warm Table catalogue and catch up on that conversation too. Today, lois and I are going to focus in on the second spring, a time of reinvention for women in midlife. It's a topic I'm very familiar with and I can vouch that Lois was a wise mentor and support while I navigated my way through this time. So let's get stuck into some more warm table wisdom. Welcome, lois.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Sonia, wonderful to be back. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so great to be able to have another warm table conversation. Of course, we've had lots of warm table coffees and conversations since we last recorded anything, and that's why it's really timely to get you back and have a conversation about what you're calling the second spring. Tell me more about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting, I think over the years of working with lots of different clients, you know men and women and younger people and older people, and you know elite athletes and just people going through cancer. You know all sorts of different people. But I often reflect on my own journey and those around me who are similar, I guess, in terms of gender and life stage and various things like that, and I've definitely started to notice there are some common themes, yeah, and I'm sure you can relate, Sonia, to some of these. But yeah, there's health changes. There's sometimes health challenges as well at this age and stage, but also just you know that kind of thinking about who am I, when am I going next? And, yeah, you know whether work that I've chosen or fallen into or maybe accommodated for family or other reasons, whether that's actually going to sustain me into the next stage.
Speaker 2:So they're interesting themes and I can relate. Another conversation I have with a lot of my girlfriends in this similar age and I guess we're talking post-50, is that sort of their age group or not?
Speaker 1:generalising, I think when you start talking about changes that are going on bodily, you know, in terms of perimenopause and menopause, it's actually really interesting because some women can start feeling that even in well, actually in their late 30s, but I think generally 40s yes, but unfortunately it's not often realised until a lot later.
Speaker 2:It's like, oh, I was probably in that I think so absolutely. Hindsight's a wonderful thing isn't it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly right. Rear-view mirror yes.
Speaker 2:So let's consider, we're looking, 45 plus maybe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's say that.
Speaker 2:And I know with my group of friends you know 50 plus and a lot of us are also talking about. For some it's just like you know, your last big job. You know you really want to go hard in this last big job, yeah, and that's an interesting one.
Speaker 1:Lots of people who talk to me, I do this thing called a career chat, so I have lots of different people talking to me and potentially, you know, some of them become clients, one-on-one and in groups. And, yeah, they'll often start with that. They'll say, oh well, I've got a good 10 years left, you know.
Speaker 4:And I think have you how do?
Speaker 1:you know that it could be 20.
Speaker 1:It could be longer, it could be shorter, and maybe they've been to their financial planner or something and they're in that state of mind where they're saying, oh, I've got 10 years and I've got to make the most of it, and I can understand that thinking. But I love the book and you know we've chatted about we'll have some show notes for all the different titles of books that I've been reading lately. But this one I read a couple of years ago and I've done a reread of, but it's called the 100-Year Life. It's by Linda Gratton and Andrew Scott. It's excellent.
Speaker 2:Fantastic, I've read that too, that power of reinvention and understanding that, yeah, I think they're talking about. You're going to live until you're about 100. That's the thing. So why would you retire at, say, 60 or 65? Because then you've still got another 35 years left to do something meaningful. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think when you put the women's lens on this and funnily enough, my background before you know nearly 20 years as a career counsellor and career coach was in finance. But also before I changed over, I was working in superannuation and I actually belonged to Women in Super, which was just like a small clutch of women who worked in super at the time in WA it was across the country.
Speaker 1:I think we had lunch and there was like about five of us or something like that, and yet now it's a massive organisation. They run the Mother's Day Classic, you know. They do amazing work and fundraising and shout out to the Women in Super bunch. But yeah, you know, the thing is that women have gaps in their employment they have, you know, their super is considerably less often. You know there's many differences in how the trajectory of their career often has gone and they maybe even have been.
Speaker 1:I think the term sometimes used is a trailing spouse. You know there's lots of reasons why for some women their career doesn't quite look how they might have thought it would at that age, at even 50, and then go I've got another 10 or 15 years left. So I think for some it's like oh well, that hasn't panned out, I need to do more. But I think the thing is that you only maybe have a finite time limit on it if you're not really enjoying what you do. So that's the other point is, when people say, I've got 10 years left, I better just knock it out and do something with it and make the dollars, yeah great, that's important Absolutely. We all need to make ends meet at the moment especially, you know, cost of living rises and all of those things. So it's just an interesting point of view and it always surprises me. So I gently challenge people and say, oh, what do you?
Speaker 1:mean, and you know, and sometimes we're going by an old radio station, you know we tuned into the channel of you study, you work, you retire and then, unfortunately, you die, you know, and, and we didn't didn't live as long. So I think, with all of this, of course, it's like how can you keep yourself well? And I think that is very much a theme of our discussion as well. It's not all about career and focus on job or work or self-employment. It's actually how can you live well, and that means doing something that you're passionate about, that fires you up, you feel purposeful, it's meaningful to you. In whatever sense the passion might come from a hobby. It doesn't have to come from your work necessarily, but it's all entwined, yeah.
Speaker 2:Totally agree, and in fact I like to call it full-time life not full-time work.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I was just having that discussion with one of my team members the other day who was worried about taking some time off. Oh, I need another day off and I'm so sorry and I think I'm going to. You know, just think about work. And I said just stop for a minute. I said this is full-time life. Work is obviously a big part of it, but it's not the full-time. So let's reconfigure how we think about it. And so I think that that full-time life for me has helped me understand that work is a really big part and it's something that really fills my cup in many different ways, but the health and wellbeing and the family and the connections and the rest and recreation and everything else that is important and that makes me a better employee, but it also makes me a better mother and wife and friend.
Speaker 1:You know it's full-time life. That's a really good way to look at it absolutely, and it's interesting when you're considering all these things and chugging away in your work and things are going pretty well and then maybe you know the menopause comes along.
Speaker 2:You say that with you know hushed silence. Say it out loud.
Speaker 1:I missed the memo. When it was the menopause, I sort of just called it menopause and then I realised I'm doing it wrong. But I love there's a great book I've just been reading, actually Eleanor Mills. Much More to Come.
Speaker 2:Love that title.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's cool and she's got a website and a membership called Noon and I imagine that's. Maybe you get to Noon and you've still got the rest of your life, you know, until the other, until midnight, and she talks about queen ages.
Speaker 2:Oh, I just recently heard that term.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's lovely, great. So I guess you know the teenager has the change and the hormones and they've got the what am I going to do next with my life and all of that sort of thing. So she's kind of turning that on.
Speaker 1:women of our ilk and saying we're queenages and I quite like that. And there's a lovely quote there's so many good quotes in that book but there's one about you know that these women haven't chosen to opt out of work, work has opted out of them. Oh, yes, yikes. So sometimes and in fact, you know, probably on an increasing basis actually, unfortunately I have women who reach out to me and say I'm in my 50s. They sometimes say that right up front or they tell me later their age, because they're usually having a phone call to start with and they say I've been let go, I've been, my role's been made redundant and you know many of us have had that over the years or know someone close to us. I usually ask that in a seminar type setting or a workshop, who's had a redundancy or had someone close to them in their family and over half, sometimes three quarters of the room put their hand up. So it's very, very common and really there shouldn't be any shame or stigma about it. But when someone's role dissolves or goes away or they decide this is a toxic environment it's not always something that's done to them, but they do choose to exit.
Speaker 1:It can be really challenging to work out what to do next, and what happens at this age, sometimes too, is that suddenly it seems harder. I noticed, even when I was transitioning and doing some portfolio work, I would go for some contracts or some jobs and it wasn't always as easy as it had been before and I thought is it me, is it the market, Is it my resume? Hopefully not, when I'm working that field, sharpening up my communication documents. But yeah, there are definitely some challenges and I know you might have experienced that, sonia, through your friends as well, absolutely, oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And myself, so I absolutely can vouch that you start to turn very inwards and start reflecting a lot and thinking, yeah, wow, is it because I'm over 50 that I'm not getting these jobs? Is it because I'm over 50 that people don't want to take a chance? But what about all my experience and you know, the thoughts in your head is pretty powerful can work against you or it can work for you. And I think it would be very natural and certainly I spiralled into that, you know wondering, gosh, is this something that have I had my use-by date? Is this it? And yet I felt so ready for that next step you know that second spring, because I without wanting to make this all about me, lois, but it is certainly something that resonates so deeply, this understanding of resetting and reinventing.
Speaker 1:Definitely yeah.
Speaker 1:And look, there's definitely many cases of gendered ageism, as it's being referred to, and that's unfortunate. But yeah, once you get into that spiral of thinking, that's it. You know that's very hard for you to move on. I always say people buy energy. So when you're job seeking or going back into that environment, because some people take a break and I think it's really important to reset I love going into nature, that's my reset, but we all have our own ways of doing that. Connecting with others, you know, having that belonging, talking through these things, I think, whether that's with a therapist, counsellor, you know, with a trusted friend or group of friends. So there's lots of opportunities and I like to gather women together, sometimes over high tea is always nice.
Speaker 1:Yes, I do enjoy that. It walks in the forest and coffees and sort of what I call pop-ups. You know just little events that just allow people to unload and say this is what's happening for me, but definitely gathering that strength, having that reset and then getting your ducks in a row. So that is sometimes sharpening your marketing documentation, your way that you approach getting work, where you don't just sit behind the screen on Seek or other wonderful job boards they are, but you know getting out and actually engaging and articulating what it is you're looking for. But when you do that, bringing that energy, that sparkle in your eye and that this is why I'm great for this job and this is what I want.
Speaker 1:And of course, you know if you've had that reset and you've had that help, you are ready to do that. And even if you don't get the callbacks which is always a big bugbear I hate when employers don't even reach out to say, look, you did well, but you didn't get the job. We've all had the second, where you know you were great but you didn't get it, you were second. I had that when I was trying to work in not-for-profit because I had all this quite diverse and interesting experience. It just wasn't in not-for-profit, so I get pipped at the post, but then eventually I got an amazing job in not-for-profit, which was great.
Speaker 1:So sometimes it's being able to wear that when maybe in your younger years you just got every job I pretty much got a lot of things I went for that I really wanted. I actually got yes, and we've often had that experience. So suddenly to not get something, it's a little bit disconcerting. I do remember one lovely client years ago and she was quite an awarded journalist. She certainly had a great history and work history behind her. She went for a job more in social media which she'd been working towards and learning about, and she went for the interview and the young person interviewing her said do you know how to use a computer? Oh my, Wow.
Speaker 2:Ouch yes definitely definitely yeah, and then she started to doubt herself, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:So we had to kind of dig out of that hole and, you know, have some other strategies. But yeah, so it's a real thing.
Speaker 2:Let's go back to the reset, because I think that that is actually probably the pivotal moment that gets you ready for the reinvention. Yes, and from reset it probably means something different to everybody what resetting might look like. For sure, for a woman going through perimenopause or menopause, I think there are some real key things that will help in the reset. Yes, I agree, and I'd love you to talk through those, and you know I'm happy to share some experiences too.
Speaker 1:That would be great. I think you know, definitely having some time out, and I'm often amazed at how women and men actually but women will say, oh, I've got all this leave saved up, I haven't used. I'm like, right, well, let's look at that then. But definitely with physical changes and that could be energy levels. You know I'm saying bring your energy and bring your game. If you don't have any to draw on, that's a problem. So that's actually a physical problem. So I think you know, obviously looking after your nutrition and your exercise and movement and all of those sorts of things and getting around people. But I think going to your GP is a great start and not necessarily taking on board not to say don't follow your GP's advice, but I think, when it comes to women and hormones, I think shopping around if you're not happy with the answer.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and I would highly recommend. Finding a doctor who is specialised in women's health and particularly in the menopause stage Changed my life for sure. Finding the right doctor who was able to listen to where I was at, and that idea of energy. So I remember, you know, the doctor sent me off for a whole heap of blood tests, which was great, and then I went back to see her and she said all the right things that I needed to hear. She said oh my goodness, sonia, I don't know how you even get out of bed and do all of the things that you do because you've got nothing. Your bloods tell me that you've got absolutely nothing left in your DHEA whatever that is that makes your testosterone, that gives you the energy she goes. You've got nothing, it's all gone. Your get up and go has got up and gone, it went. It just left the building. And so she said all of those right things to say. You know, I'm impressed with the fact that you're still putting one foot in front of the other and you're showing up.
Speaker 1:Yeah totally For how long For?
Speaker 2:how long can you sustain that right? And so she gave me that scientific reason for why I was so fatigued and tired and was really struggling to, you know, get excited about the next step.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and I think what can sometimes happen is we revert back to things that we've done in the past that worked, and I know for me I just went. I love exercise, it recharges me, I get the endorphins, I like movement. You know I've danced a lot and that sort of thing. So but flinging myself into high kind of pressure exercise where of course you know the wrong hormones are probably charging up and and stress hormones and things like that. So so it was interesting to sometimes, even when you experiment with your reset and then you go, actually it's probably not the reset I really need.
Speaker 1:I know, for me, going and doing the Cape to Cape it sounds like a bit of a, you know, climbing a mountain type of adventure and off we go, but actually for me it was just like a digital detox. I spent a lot of time in a small group but sort of hanging back and just doing my own thing and really getting into nature. So I think it's really listening to your body and also trying to, I say, shoo away the shoulds, so when I say I should be doing X, I should be doing Y, and your GPs are trying to look after you holistically as best they can in their short allotment of time. So you'll hear sometimes these shoulds and you'll go, oh yes, and you'll start beating yourself up about I should do this, I should do more of that, less of that.
Speaker 1:There's a great quote in Eleanor's book about you know, you've got all these things piling up with menopause, this, this, this, this different symptoms for different people, obviously. And then I turned the page. I was actually reading on my Kindle, but I flipped the page and then it said and then you can't even have a glass of wine because it affects you so much. So I did have a bit of a giggle over that because I thought, too true, that's it exactly.
Speaker 2:And coming back to the shoulds, I used to work with this gorgeous man who used to teach this sort of stuff and he would talk about don't should on me, so I really liked how he positioned that.
Speaker 1:So true.
Speaker 2:But just talking about that reset and just being really clear about the fact that for every woman it's going to look different, but the first thing to do is just really pause and think about what is going to work for you and for me. It's going to look different, but the first thing to do is just really pause and think about what is going to work for you and for me. It was going to see a doctor who understood women's health in their 50s and looking at what supplements I needed, what hormonal help I needed and getting that right. The second part was exercise, and I've not been a big exerciser and so yeah, just looking at strength training and an exercise that was going to actually keep me going, yeah, and I'm pleased to say that two years on I'm still doing it Fantastic.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Designed, as I understand, for women. Designed for women, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so finding what it is that's going to increase your physical strength, because that is really really important at this stage muscle strength is really, muscle mass is really important.
Speaker 2:So resetting from that perspective and making the time for it. So I know now, even like now that I've gone back into full-time work, there are a lot of people um on the team that have to drop off kids and pick up kids and you know so the flexible work hours are very understanding for that, thank goodness. I look at my trip to the gym in the morning as my taking my kids to school time right.
Speaker 2:Taking your muscles to school, taking my muscles to school, and so I'll go and do a gym workout before work and then I'll turn up to work pretty much the same time as everybody else is coming in after dropping off children, so I'm sort of not feeling days gone by. I would feel guilty about that, you know, but now it's just like you know, this is actually a really important time for me to keep my health going, which means I'm going to be better in my job. So finding what that reset looks like and how it can be sustainable is really important.
Speaker 1:That's so true, and I think the reset also is a good reflective time. I've actually moved to using a bullet journal. I really love this concept. Tell me what that?
Speaker 4:is.
Speaker 1:So bullet journal or dot journal. I used to look at them and go, that looks a bit weird, where are all the lines? But now I really love it. And bulletjournalcom. Actually, Ryder Carroll came up with this principle. He had ADHD and he was finding it hard to keep track of everything and he developed this system and was sort of you know, tinkering away with it and using it himself. And a lady was struggling with planning something and he said I'll show you what I do. And she was amazed and said, oh, you need to teach this. So hence Bullet Journal came into being. So he has, you know, some courses and some actual Bullet Journals you can buy and all the good things. But what I love about it, I used to have quite a few notebooks.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to actually reveal how many, tell us, go on Too many. I moved when, when my daughter moved out of home fairly recently, um, I took over her lovely bigger room for my office, um, so of course that meant moving everything paperwork, all sorts of old things and old text, stuff that can be shredded and all of that fun stuff. And yeah, I had so many journals, notebooks. A lot of times I would keep full things in them and then file them away. So some of them had been fully used, but there were probably about I think I found 18 journals, yeah, and a lot of those were partially used.
Speaker 1:You know, like this idea of this pristine book that's got. I'm going to write about this in this journal and then you write three pages and then you go, yep, okay, I've done that. And then, oh look, and I'd be down south and I'd be in some lovely gallery and there'd be these journals or these notebooks and I'd be like, oh, a brand. I think it's the law of a brand-new notebook. It's like you're a brand-new person or it's a brand-new day. You know, there's that sort of notion of it.
Speaker 2:I you know, while I might have sounded a bit judgy a minute ago you've just described me.
Speaker 1:So yes.
Speaker 2:I am that person, so.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering yeah, I mean, it's definitely a thing you know. So the lovely part and very, very simply and quickly and we can put Bullet Journal as a link but really what it is like even today I'm writing down some notes, I'm writing down all the books that we might, you know, refer to and that sort of thing, but it does say the date and it just runs on from the day before. But I can move to the front of the journal and write in my warm table and about the second spring, and then you know in November if I want to look back, or next year or whatever, I can go. Oh, where was that?
Speaker 4:And I've written it in an index at the front and I've written down the page number, which is a little bit hard to see, but it's 117 so I can.
Speaker 1:I can do that and then I'll be able to find that.
Speaker 1:So that that was a revelation for me, because you can keep everything in the one place. So I think sometimes um, getting back to health and linking back to that, as you're keeping a bit of a daily log of what's going on in your world and it's very bullet point, so it's not having to write a big reflection unless you want to. I've been putting a little extra little notation in of H and that's health. Oh nice, so I can maybe say oh look, I woke up early, I didn't sleep well, but then I slept well for four nights solid, and then I didn't sleep well again. And then I can go oh, what was I doing on those days?
Speaker 1:I can start seeing, because your GP will ask you or your health specialist will ask you. You know how many times are you waking up or how many times is this happening to you, and often we get that wrong, we guesstimate. So this is really a way that you can track even your moods or what's going on in your day and your time and that sort of thing. So I love it.
Speaker 2:I think that's great. That's really, really practical. You know a technique that's really practical that people can adopt straight away. I like that. Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:And you know it is fairly well documented around. You know, in our last conversation we were talking about with cancer, sometimes with chemo and brain fog and things like that, but also with hormonal changes you can at times get more forgetful or find it harder to plan, or there's other things that can happen.
Speaker 2:That's very varied for different people or you've just got so much going on at the same time, yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 1:Um. So I think that reset is also about not putting things in your way, making life easier, and I think it's also about, sometimes, what can I take away, not what can I keep adding, adding adding because we're all good at doing that and piling on a lot of other things. So I think for me just to recap the reset, you know, definitely awareness and getting that help and support, staying active and healthy, keeping on learning.
Speaker 2:Oh, so important.
Speaker 2:You know, that actually is something that is really so key and I've seen it in workplaces across my career that, you know, people in their 50s have got a really bad rap right, and for some I'm going to play devil's advocate here in some cases that's probably justified because they've stopped learning, yeah, and they are counting the days till retirement and they are actually just sort of sitting there thinking about the good old days and how things have changed so much.
Speaker 2:And, like I said, I'm playing devil's advocate here because I have seen it over and over again that the workplace has changed, the behaviours in the workplace have changed, the laws have changed, technology has changed. You know, if we've been in the workplace for 30-plus years, which a lot of us have we've seen significant changes and it is our responsibility to change. It really is, and I think the people in their 50s who do have a bad rap unfortunately have missed that opportunity to change or refuse to change. Yes, so you know, like I said, they're probably some harsh words, but it is something that I have seen over and over again and it actually gives the rest of us in our 50s who've kept learning a bad rap too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think also you're right, sonia, because sometimes you know, in the past and I can think back to organisations I've worked for we were actually given quite a lot of PD and like send, you're being sent on this course. I remember sometimes thinking, well, what's this for? Like, okay, I'll go along to that. You know, learning about communication style or whatever it is, and they're always great. But then I noticed there was a bit of a shift to like I want to learn something and I had to really do a business case and pitch for it. And you know there was definitely that shift.
Speaker 1:I know if you work in a very big organization with a big L&D department, you're probably thinking, well, that doesn't apply to me, but for a lot of us in smaller enterprises, not-for-profits, et cetera, yeah, that money is really watched very carefully. So if you want to do something, you often have to put a great big business case together, get it over the line. You might have to pay for it and then you may get half back or some back or all of it back if you're lucky.
Speaker 2:Or as a consultant, which I've been for most of my life, you have to do it yourself Totally.
Speaker 1:And I think, yeah, when you say about the bad rap, I think when we're sitting here and both, you know, have had our own businesses and for a long time, yeah, you're constantly upgrading, Constantly learning and the digital side of that. And, you know, I taught myself how to do quite a few different things and stitch different programs together and all of that kind of thing. And, you know, learn about ZAPs and even now learning about AI. And you can't really just say, well, that doesn't apply to me when you see elderly people in there fumbling for change and then the cafe doesn't take money anymore because you know all of that stuff. It's just like how can you at least keep up? We don't necessarily have to surge forward and be the leader of everything, but how can you even just keep up? We absolutely need to learn. In fact, I just got masterclasscom, which is like a. You know, it's almost like Netflix, but for learning and development.
Speaker 1:And I'm having a bit of fun with that at the.
Speaker 4:Moment.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so we talked about, you know, keep learning also, stay connected and I think in our busy lives it's very easy to lose touch.
Speaker 1:And, of course, there's our friends and family and the people we would have around our table, absolutely, but also, you know, in terms of our network and our professional network, and that's very easy too, particularly when you do fall into a bit of a hole or there's been a gap or you're thinking about what's my second screen going to be and you might retreat, but almost retreat right into yourself and not really connect with people. But once you've got it, got a bit of um, you know what you're working through, what you're interested in reconnecting with people, and sometimes people say to me I can't, I can't reach out to that person. It's been three years. I was like you absolutely can, absolutely bond's still there and you know we've got lovely tools like LinkedIn and other things. And asking other people you know who, do you know who could you connect me with in this new space I want to explore? People are so generous and they love to help.
Speaker 2:And you're a wonderful connector. Oh, I love connecting people and, in fact, I would also say that that's one of the ways you can keep learning, because sitting and having conversations with people who are in different industries or doing different work or exposed to different learning opportunities, it keeps you stimulated as well, and it's fantastic and I can't overemphasise that. You just need to ask for help and you'll be so surprised at the generosity and the willingness of people to have a coffee with you or even, you know even a quick Teams call, you know whatever it is, or Zoom, or Zoom. Yeah, exactly, just a quick call to connect and help you on that. Next step?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, and you know. So, staying connected, exploring, don't be afraid of exploring. You know Herminia Burra talks about in Working Identity. You know doing those experiments, trying things out, and I think this stage of life is a great stage to also try out new hobbies and pastimes. And you know I go back to my dancing, but I actually have a bit of an eye on surfing, oh really, which is really interesting because I'll have to cover myself for you to know, in sync. But I'm kind of curious. I'm surfing curious at the moment, Surfing curious. So stay posted on that one.
Speaker 2:Well, I was sewing curious a little while ago and I did a sewing course which you know I probably should have learned. My mum is the best dressmaker incredible. But I was never patient enough to learn when I was younger and now she's not patient enough to teach me because I think I've had my time, but she's been fixing and mending for me for, you know, 50-plus years, wow. But I decided I need to go and learn sewing. So I went with a girlfriend, we went and did a sewing. Well done, just one of those you know part-time courses. So, yeah, keep learning and exploring and finding little hobbies. Yeah, really important, it is fun.
Speaker 1:And then you meet, even if what you do is a total disaster. You meet other people, you have a laugh and you'll probably forge new friendships. Because I think that also happens to women and men actually in life is that they can lose friendships along the way as well, because they're so work-centric sometimes, and then if they lose their job or they leave their job, you know and they're lonely.
Speaker 2:They've lost that network. Yeah, absolutely, that's true.
Speaker 1:So keeping connected. And then, interestingly, you know, definitely we talked about the holistic advice and that can be whole of life but also in the health sector, you know, going a bit further out and getting things that fill you up but also slowing down. And I put to unfurl oh, I like that. Yeah, I'm really, really keen about cherry blossoms. So I tend to always pull it back to the sakura and how you know, your second spring is like this lovely unfurling of the petals, yes, and you can't say bloom hurry up.
Speaker 1:Can you bloom in two and a half weeks, because I really need you to bloom.
Speaker 1:Then you know it is an unfurling and I think it's a different pace for all of us. So even you know, sometimes women will say, oh, I sailed through menopause or whatever, and we're all different and some of us are going to look back and go yeah, actually that was tough, but I didn't know it at the time. Or some are going to find, yeah, challenges you know. So I think it's being aware and talking with others, but knowing your pace and timing might be different to others. And, and I think, when we're looking at work and returning to work, or A lot of women with their second spring actually decide I'm going to go out on my own, I'm going to start something myself. Maybe that's because they exited a toxic workplace or they've had a redundancy, but also sometimes it's a choice and I think being geared up for that, letting that unfurl and tapping into your own way of doing things, is really important as well own way of doing things is really important as well.
Speaker 2:That word unfurling reeks of wisdom, right, because there's patience, there's acceptance. Yes, you know very much that word unfurl is really totally imbued with that.
Speaker 2:So I think that that only comes when you're that little bit older and wiser as well and have the opportunity to sit in that space and sit and be, but we need to make that time and I think that you know we can just continually be busy and continually be captivated by busyness and things that you know we've always done. Yes, so I want to look at the word menopause and the things that you know we've always done. Yes, so I want to look at the word menopause and the word pause. Oh, absolutely, the word pause in there is, I think, the first step to help us on that next journey.
Speaker 1:I would agree with you Absolutely. Yeah, Pause, reset and then you can start to think about your reinvention or your second spring.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in the second spring and in our 50s now years and years ago, and unfortunately I can't tell you where this research was, but there was some research about innovation and the findings were that people are most innovative when they're younger, so in their sort of teens and early 20s and in their 50s plus, and the rationale behind that is that they're the stages in your life where you possibly have less dependence on you and less commitments. So in your early 20s you're sort of still finding your way, you probably aren't saddled with a mortgage and children and you know sort of the realities of a life. And then later in your 50s is when you've done that often not for everyone, but you've done that and you're therefore in that stage where you can be a little bit more innovative and a little bit more less shackled to make decisions that might be a little bit more innovative and a little bit more less shackled to make decisions that might be a little bit outside the norm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I would agree with that. I think there's also that element that a lot of women talk about as becoming a bit more bolshy or a bit more you know better at boundaries just because, hey, I want to try this new thing or I want to do this thing, and I need to have that space. But luckily, sometimes that's freed up for them. We do, of course, have often ageing parents and other things that are important to us as well. That's right. So, even at the reset, you know, looking at your values and we sometimes just carry those over and think they're the same, but actually I think it's a time to look at that. But yeah, there's definitely shifting sands, isn't there? There's some things that are freeing up and then there's some things that are emerging, yes, and that can make for confusion. It can make for a confusing time. So, giving yourself the space to work through that and gently unfurl.
Speaker 2:I like that. Yes, gently, unfurl Great wisdom, great wisdom. What else should we know about the second spring Lois?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the other thing is that we can look back at ourselves and we can say, wow, I've got all these amazing experiences. Often, people you know will say to me I don't really have anything, I don't know what I want. You know, I don't know what I have to bring, and it's nice to spend the time to even listen to their story and pick out all these amazing things that they have. So, and you're so good at that. Oh, thank you, I love it.
Speaker 1:As I say, I think I'm just nosy, I love I'm a career nerd I love hearing people's stories and and not just what they've done and experienced, but also, you know, I can hear their strengths and I can hear their values through that, but also how they move themselves along. And you know, sometimes I just forget oh yeah, I met that person or I talked to that person, and then now they're looking on and it's like, okay, but you were good at that, you know, like so sometimes just reminding people, but yeah, there's lots of little elements there, I think, that people can dig into and start to realise what they've got to offer, but also realise how much the world is changing. And, you know, being open, being really open, and don't be scared of it.
Speaker 2:I think that's the other side is that you know it can be scary starting a new job in a new organisation, maybe even a new sector, yeah, and there's a whole bunch of new technology to learn people to get to know, systems, to understand. That is a reality for everybody, not just because you're 50 plus. Yeah, exactly, and so I think you know, taking the time to acknowledge that, yeah, there's going to be a whole lot of change and a whole lot of new things I'm going to need to learn, but I'm not the only one and it's not expected that you're going to walk in and know how to do all of that immediately.
Speaker 2:And in most organisations there's incredible support to help you to navigate your way in a new place. That's right so again, give yourself that space and time to be the new kid on the block and allow yourself to learn and take advice.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, there's. Sometimes, I think, with the silvers in the hair there's that, you know. Oh, I've got wisdom, I've got experience, but at the same time, giving yourself a break. Yeah, everyone's learning and everyone's, you know, needs to ask questions. But what I've noticed about more mature people in the workplace is that they will document things and they will ask questions and they will write it down so they don't ask it again. They've learned it. Oh, they can find it later. And that's almost that onboarding process which some organisations do really well and some do, unfortunately, rather poorly. But you can always onboard yourself. Yes, and that's going.
Speaker 1:Who are the people I go to? And they're often not the people with the title necessarily. It's like that person seems to always get that done. Or who can I ask? And people in your network, beyond that particular role? You know I've often had coffees with people who want to come into, you know, the career space. I'm always glad to talk to them about how that went for me and how it's changed over time and that sort of thing. So I think there's a lot of wealth of wisdom around you as well. So not feeling like I have to know the answers and I need to keep to myself. You can crowdsource it, you can yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think another piece of advice that is useful.
Speaker 2:It was useful for me. Yes, is, and it's one of those old sayings that may sound a little bit I don't know, pollyanna, maybe I've been accused of that many times that idea of if it's for you, it won't pass you by. I don't know if I've said that as eloquently as the actual saying, but I feel like my life has been living proof of that over and over and over again and I think if we all sit and reflect, we'll find the same that if it's meant to be for you, if that is the job you're supposed to go for and get, if you know that idea of being a bridesmaid so many times that you know you're sort of second in line, you know, certainly I've had that experience over and over again in my career too yes, and then you look back and you just think, oh gosh, but look what opened up, when you know the right thing did come at the right time, that's right. You know the right thing did come at the right time, that's right, and not not forcing it necessarily, just keeping on going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't force it absolutely, and you know I sometimes have a bit of a saying of um, it's rinse and repeat a lot of the work you do to say I really want to move in this direction, whether it's a new thing, a new career or going to you know something you know before, but in a different context. Um, getting yourself geared up and ready for that is one thing, but then the actual motions of doing it are actually quite repetitive and I think sometimes we can get a little bit bored with that and we maybe just, you know we don't hear back from employers, which you know if you've been brought up, whether you do respond, you know it's RSVP means you actually do respond, whereas, yeah, there's that to contend with.
Speaker 2:I think that's actually one of the new things that is worth discussing the way that the workplace has changed in its recruitment processes, yes, so that for me had been quite a revelation, going back in looking for, you know, full-time work after having been a consultant for so long. For sure, the recruitment process was a lot more impersonal than what it was when I, you know, sort of, was looking for work years before.
Speaker 1:Definitely yeah, and I think I mean I often encourage people to use a multi-pronged approach to their work search so that they're not overly relying on one way. I'd always say use your strengths so that they're not overly relying on one way. I'd always say use your strengths. So, for example, sonia, you're amazing with cultivating your networks and connections and you're very generous with them, so you hope that comes back around and you know and helps you that way. But obviously there's also things that pop up on the job boards. So it's looking at that, using you know recruiters if that's appropriate for your sector, even doing an expression of interest. You know I've had clients where they've said can you do that? Can you just write a letter to some organization? Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1:And I've had clients you know senior exec clients where they've said if someone wrote me a letter and said, hey, I really want to work in your organization, I've got these skills and they were appropriate, you know I've got these skills and they were appropriate. You know I've had several actually. But one guy I remember he said that and I said, oh, that's great. And he said, oh, I would always invite them in. And he said I actually hired a lab manager that way. He said I was like, oh wow, that is so cool, so you know you can identify and pitch really yourself. So I think sometimes we play too much by the rules.
Speaker 2:We've been brought up a certain way that this is how you apply and this is what you do and you just wait and you're patient and you wait and actually sometimes you do need to get brought forward, and then you get an email to tell you that you've missed out, even though you've gone for an interview which you know back in the day, you'd get a phone call, of course. Now, often you get an email to say you've missed out, which is highly impersonal.
Speaker 1:It's unusual. Yeah, I've had clients tell me that they were offered the job, and by email. Wow which is quite unusual, because that's the most fun part of hiring Sometimes, when you ring up and go hey.
Speaker 2:I've got good news Exactly.
Speaker 1:So things have changed. They have. And even in the applicant tracking systems you know some big companies use. If you just send an old resume I joke about the year 10 resume that you did in you know career ed or something and then you've just added to it over many, many years and decades and you can't really just roll that out anymore. If it's got tables and got you know formatting in it and things like that, where it's it's only it's going to go down the outshoot when you send it in to a big company who are using these systems. So you do need to get with the program. There's definitely new things and new ways and I think maybe in the old days you know of applying for a job, you gave them the resume and they'd ask you questions oh, I see you've done this, I see you've done that, and it was almost walking through a resume.
Speaker 1:Now it's very much behavioural interview questions situational interview questions and you know, I teach something called the triple punch, where it's like the three things you most you have, that they most want. So it's really making sure it's not really all about you, it's about them and how you fit them. So that takes effort and time and Huge preparation, preparation and practice. And that's why sometimes don't worry so much. Go along and do all those interviews that are for jobs you kind of think you like, but they're maybe not your dream one or the great one, and then you're getting practice. You can also do role plays and all sorts of things, fun things, mock interviews, but yeah, that'll get you ready and then the right one does come along. It really does.
Speaker 2:It, but, yeah, that'll get you ready, and then the right one does come along, doesn't it, sandra? It really does, it absolutely does, absolutely does, and all of those interviews were great practice for that. Exactly, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And just coming back to some of the other changes in the way that people apply for jobs. Sometimes you've actually got to do a little video to answer questions and, again, really impersonal. But yeah, all of these it's just. I think it's important to talk about it because, as we move into the second spring and if you haven't been in the job market for a while, understanding these new approaches is important, so that you don't take it personally and that you're prepared to step outside your comfort zone For sure.
Speaker 1:And the video is a big one, because I've had a few ladies who say, oh, you know, I hate that idea of being on video and they obviously want someone younger. But we've talked about that and said, well, not necessarily, and it's a great skill to develop. So even you know where they position. If they're just using their phone, making sure it's positioned well and they practise what they have to say and look, you can usually do about 100 takes of that and pick the best one it's only some of the organisations say 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 and you have to answer.
Speaker 1:They're a bit trickier, but you can still prepare, get that ready, test it out on Zoom record yourself. There's lots of little strategies there to get you up to speed with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, you'll surprise yourself. You will, I agree, I agree, and I think we come back to again the word pause. Yes, pause and unfurl I think they're the big takeouts from our conversation today, lois, yeah, but give yourself the time to do this. So, stepping into your second spring, you need your spring in your step. I'm just going to use a pun there. Yes, absolutely do, but in order to get that, you do really need to be quite deliberate and thoughtful about what that next step is going to look like.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think you know from my business career wisdom, I use the tree analogy a lot and if you think of your second spring as being that beautiful sakura blossom, you know the tree is very grounded, the roots go very wide and deep. So making sure you are grounded and for me that's often going out in nature if I've had too much tech and getting around people that, yeah, that lift you up and you feel good around and that sort of thing and yet getting your health on track all of those things are going to help you to replenish, Getting the information you need, but not overdoing that and saturating that. So, even though we were talking about learning earlier, making it early on more specific to what you need to learn or what you'll need for that next role, you don't need to do a master's degree in absolutely everything you know, you could even do a short course or a MOOC, or you know, udemy, coursera, linkedin, learning.
Speaker 1:One of those short courses is often enough, just to you know, upskill you in the lingo of something new.
Speaker 2:And also just through those courses, especially if they are with other colleagues, other people, you do meet people in the industries. That will then open doors going forward, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can get around, you know even meetups or, yeah, short sort of seminars and things like that. So there's so much, there's absolutely so much.
Speaker 2:And following all of those on LinkedIn, definitely, if you're not on LinkedIn, get on LinkedIn. For sure I run workshops on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you do, and people are amazed what they can do.
Speaker 2:What is there? That's right yeah yeah, yeah, Not only reaching out to people in the networks but reaching out to people in the networks, but also what you can attract in. Yeah, so we're talking about resetting and reinventing.
Speaker 1:We're talking about unfurling and pausing and a whole plethora of books that you've read that we put in as show notes, absolutely mainly about women and midlife, and there's a lovely one that's an audio series the Rest of Books, but the Late Bloomer by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, who is the sort of curator and author of Women who Run With the Wolves, oh yes, which is an amazing book. Amazing book, yeah. So that's quite lovely because it's an audio series and she's narrating a lot of stories.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'll have to tap into that it's absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 1:I'm ready to sort of have another listen. Actually, I've listened to it a little while ago, but yeah, we've got quite a few here that I think will resonate.
Speaker 2:I just think that it's such an exciting time Like I'm super excited about my 50s.
Speaker 2:I'm excited about the fact that I've been so blessed to have the opportunity to raise my kids. They're now independent, still living at home, but you know, they've got their lives and they're forging their paths, and so my role has changed as a mother, as the person you know, running the household with my husband who does pretty much everything else, and I'm excited that this is my time to be uninterrupted and keep moving forward in a path that I'm really passionate about, and I feel like I've got so much to give. It's very exciting, and so I really feel like I've found my second spring, now Beautiful, after going through a little bit of a dark winter wondering oh, am I too old? Are my skills even relevant? Will I ever get to the career heights that I have wanted to achieve?
Speaker 1:You know that winter is real, yes, and the spring is just so satisfying when it does come, that's it and it is a seasonal thing, so it's you know, but obviously not just waiting it out but doing some things, having that rest, having that pause, but also then building towards. And you know we need more women in important roles in society beyond certain years. You know, like we need diversity in all its ways and I think sometimes with DEI we forget age it's sort of the last one and yeah, it's people and their energy and what they bring.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that wisdom and life experiences in different sectors, and even your experiences as a parent, your experiences as somebody caring for older parents, your experiences in living in different countries there's so much that you bring to an organisation and to your next career that I just think we should never underestimate ourselves. And you know, working with someone like you, Lois, to actually help people identify their strengths and their why and their what next is really critical part of that unfurling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, sonia, because I find it's hard sometimes to do all of this by yourself and on your own and on yourself, and turn inwards and all of those things. So having someone witness you, listen to you but then also be able to help you with some strategies is helpful and generous people like yourself who you know spend the time, yeah, to listen and to connect and those sorts of things that, yeah, no one is an island, no, very true.
Speaker 2:So it's exciting, so I'm so pleased we've had this conversation because I and I really do hope that it resonates with a lot of women who might be at that point of perimenopause or wondering about their next step or, you know, in their late forties or even late fifties, and thinking that they've still got so much more to offer but aren't sure how to position themselves to take advantage of the next spring. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's not too late, you're not too old, you can unfurl.
Speaker 2:I love it. Lois, thank you so much for coming back around the warm table today. It's been a delight to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much, Sonia.
Speaker 1:It's been wonderful.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Kelly Riley, creator and head coach of females over 45 fitness, or foff as we are fondly called. Our studio is located in victoria park and we are also online all across australia. At foff, our members range in age from 45 through to 84 years of age at the moment. They're amazing examples of hope. Let's meet one of our members now and be inspired by her story.
Speaker 4:My name is Marg. I'm in my late 50s and I work as a receptionist at Dental Health Services. I love doing my FOF gym workouts my health is so important. I discovered I had osteoarthritis around four years ago and had started to avoid certain things like stirs and bike riding because of the pain. Instead of accepting this as my fate, I decided to join FOF. I train for three hours a week over three days and I'm pleased to say that my osteoarthritis is under control and I don't take any painkillers now. Hope for me means that in the future, as I age, I can look forward to feeling strong and confident.
Speaker 2:Thanks for joining us around the warm table. My warm table is produced, hosted and edited by me, sonia Nolan. It's my way of amplifying positivity and curiosity in our community. I invite you to share this conversation with family and friends and follow my Warm Table podcast on Facebook, instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can subscribe and follow my Warm Table on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and maybe even leave a review, because it helps others to find us more easily.
