Kicking Cancer with Lisa Holland

Lisa Holland is a truly remarkable woman. She embodies the words hope and inspiration equally as much as she personifies strength and resilience. 

During our warm table conversation Lisa shares her fight with two different types of breast cancer and also thyroid cancer and how she has been both a victim and a hero of her own story and has survived to become wiser, more generous, and inspired to leave a legacy.

Lisa is a non fiction author, publisher, truth teller, lover of life and experiences. She thrives in complexity, she pushes the status quo and embraces change and new thinking.  She is truly remarkable!

I hope you'll join us around the warm table...

Warm thanks to:
Sponsor: Females Over Forty-five Fitness in Victoria Park
Sound Engineering: Damon Sutton
Music: William A Spence
... and all our generous and inspiring guests around the warm table this season!

Transcript

Lisa Holland: 0:00

I was on autopilot, you got to choose- you've got to make a choice - I want to live, and I see a future, I have hope for a future and that hope involves having more children. And so I'm going to, despite everything which has happened and everything which is going to happen, I'm going to actually do this because I don't think I'm going to be dead in in the less than a year. So you know, I kind of did the fertility treatment then it was into chemotherapy and the chemotherapy was horrific.

Sonia Nolan: 0:34

Thanks for joining me, Sonia Nolan around the warm table, or the tavola calda as my Italian papa used to call a welcoming table of acceptance, positivity and curiosity. My Warm Table podcast aims to create that and more as we amplify stories of Western Australians making our communities better. My Warm Table season three is proud to be sponsored by Females Over 45 Fitness with a studio in Victoria Park, and also online all over Australia. So now please take a seat and join us for season three as we explore stories of hope. I tossed and turned about how to introduce today's warm table guest. It was really hard for me to actually capture and encapsulate one remarkable woman in just a few words, because I've known Lisa Holland since we were teenagers, and in many ways we followed each other's career paths and lives growing through our friendship. Lisa is truly a remarkable woman. She thrives in complexity, she pushes the status quo, she embraces change and new thinking - there's no one quite like her. Lisa is a nonfiction author. She's a publisher, a truth teller. She's a lover of life and experiences, especially given her roller coaster ride with cancer over the last two decades. Lisa embodies the words 'hope' and'inspiration' equally as much as she personifies strength and resilience. During our conversation, Lisa talked about her fight with two different types of breast cancer, and also thyroid cancer, and how despite successful treatment and good health, she still worries each year around March when she has an annual checkup. Well, I'm so deeply happy to share that since we recorded our warm table conversation, Lisa has again been given the all clear. And she remains hopeful for a future to keep making an impact in her work and family and leaving a meaningful and lasting legacy. So join us around the warm table as Lisa and I reflect on our friendship, and she shares the journey that she's been on in the last 20 years. Lisa, thanks for joining me around the warm table today.

Lisa Holland: 2:53

Thanks for having me. Sonya, I'm looking forward to chatting to you about this important issue.

Sonia Nolan: 2:57

And it is an important issue Lis. And look, I've had the privilege of walking alongside you in your story of hope and despair at times. So I want to start from the time that perhaps you didn't feel very hopeful at all. It was a time I remember well, when you had just had a new baby eight week old son, and you were diagnosed with breast cancer. Can we take you back to that time?

Lisa Holland: 3:27

Yeah, and you didn't just walk alongside me. Sonya, you held my hand and helped me along the way. So I want to acknowledge that right up front. And I think I want to say right up front that having true friends when you are walking along a journey like this. It just helps so much and and it's what enables you to find strength and it gives you hope. So I just want to say that right up front. You know, you weren't watching what was going on. You were very much involved. And I will always remember that and be grateful for it.

Sonia Nolan: 4:04

Thanks, Lis.

Lisa Holland: 4:05

Yeah, it's a funny thing. I just turned 30. Or was I- I had my baby in October, my first child Drew. And my 31st birthday was in early November. So I just turned 31. Actually, this was back in 2001. And, of course, wasn't thinking about breast cancer. Being a new mom Drew was about eight weeks old. And I never really connected with breastfeeding. It just wasn't really something that worked for me. And so I stopped breastfeeding when he was about seven weeks old. And immediately as my breasts started to change, I got mastitis and they were very, very sore and then they started to get back to their normal size. And there was alarm and of course, I, you know, I told the doctor, but of course, because I just had a baby and they'd been breastfeeding and I was 31 years old, the natural assumption was that that lump was blocked milk duct or something like that. So cancer wasn't even on the table at all. And so I went to the doctor, they thought it was that. And then really, it was, it was odd, because it must have been the way it felt to the GP. And he said, I'm gonna send you to get tested. And if you could imagine, that was like, what? You know, that was crazy. Back then, in 2001, of course breast cancer existed, but because they weren't testing as much as they do now, it wasn't a conversation really about breast cancer. It really was associated with older women later in life getting breast cancer.

Sonia Nolan: 5:51

Very much so.

Lisa Holland: 5:53

It wasn't really a young woman's thing, even though I'm sure there were young women who was getting, who were getting it. And I remember having a mammogram when you've just had a baby is... and they were very different. They they're much better now. So everyone out there go get a mammogram. But back then they were quite archaic and very painful. I went and had the mammogram, which then of course led to a biopsy, which was terrifying. And I'll never forget and you know, the poor. I think they call it a scenographer. So the scenographer took, did an ultrasound was looking at that and says, I've got to get a doctor. And we're gonna have to do a biopsy. And I was like going, what's going on? Is there something there? Like, isn't this just a blocked milk duct? And she turned around, she kind of patted me on the shoulder and said, oh, look, just you know, remember that - was what was it?"Remember, yesterday is in the past, tomorrow's in the future, and today's the present. So it's a gift." Oh, my God, I thought I was gonna die then in there. It was the worst thing she could have said.

Sonia Nolan: 7:07

What a platitude at that time. Did you have anyone with you Lis? Or, were you on your own?

Lisa Holland: 7:12

No, I was just on my own, because I just didn't think anything of it, right? So that was actually terrifying when she said that, and let me offer some advice to anyone

Sonia Nolan: 7:19

And you don't want to platitude like that. It's not getting an ultrasound or a mammogram don't ask the scenographers what's going on. They, they're not allowed to tell you. And you don't want to know, it's best just to wait for the results. going to help.

Lisa Holland: 7:35

And really then, Son, that just came back as what's called triple negative breast cancer, which is the rarest breast cancer you can get. Back in 2001, they really didn't know anything about it. The reason that's triple negative is because the main three categories of breast cancer is oestrogen driven breast cancer, which is what the majority of people get. Then there's progesterone driven cancer. And then there's what's called a Herceptin, like it's a HER2 cancer, and they know quite a lot about those three cancers. But they call what I had triple negative because they actually don't know about it.

Sonia Nolan: 8:14

So it wasn't oestrogen, it wasn't progesterone, and it wasn't that Herceptin. So that's the triple negative.

Lisa Holland: 8:21

Yeah. So they can't, they don't even know what

Sonia Nolan: 8:23

The hormones that are going crazy at that time. it is. So that all they can say is, well, we know what it's not. And so that's terrifying as well. And so what they do then is they basically try and work out what could cause it. So I've been tested twice for genetics to see if I carry, once back then I went on a trial at Royal Perth Hospital, which was looking if young women had breast cancer, if it was genetic, but no, there were no genetic markers. And then they tested me again when I had cancer again, just in 2017-2018, because genetics does, has advanced a lot, but they still couldn't find any markers. So with that cancer, they still have no idea why I got it, where it came from anything like that. And I suppose at that time, you know, you talk about hope. I had

Lisa Holland: 9:12

And I think the difficulty is that your mind, zero because I had to, it was just before Christmas when it once you become a mother, your mind doesn't go to your own happened. So it would have been early December when I got mortality, your mind goes to what you're not going to see. So diagnosed. Drew by this stage was I think eight or nine weeks old. I was struggling with being a new mum, especially a first you immediately don't think about I'm going to die. You time mum was and then all the emotions which comes with that. think I'm not going to see my child grow - oh, I'm going to cry. It's such a, the despair is kind of staggering. And but then you get on to this, what makes it I suppose worse. And you'd still I had no hope still at this stage because my oncologist said to me, "look, the sort of cancer, you've got it, we don't know a lot about it. I'll give you a 50/50 chance of being alive at the end of the year."

Sonia Nolan: 10:23

Oh, wow.

Lisa Holland: 10:24

And then and I mean, you know, when you're 31, and you've got an eight week old baby, that's not what you want to hear. And then, on top of that, she I was really pushing, I'm quite an analytical person, as you know. And I wanted answers, you know, being told,"well, it's negative, this this this," I was like, "Well, what is it?" And my oncologist ended up saying, "Lisa, I don't have any answers for you. All I can tell you is that it's bad luck." And to be honest for someone to tell you that something is bad luck, it means that you have no control. Because how can you control luck? You can't. So if you can't control something, you don't know how to fix it. So basically, I went into the journey saying, I've got one of the world's best oncologists, Arlene Chan, Amazing. Honestly, she is incredible. She was doing

Sonia Nolan: 11:13

Amazing woman all - starting all her worldwide breast cancer research trials. So that was at the beginning of that. I had a surgeon called Dr. David Ingram, who was also one of the best at the time, they worked together very closely. And you know, you've got two choices, this time in a health journey, especially nowadays, back then, obviously, access to information was different to the way it is now because we're talking over 20 years ago. But I decided I'm with some of the world's leading specialists here, and I'm going to put myself in their hands. And I'm going to do what they tell me to do. So that was my decision. Sounds like a very good decision and how blessed we are to have had that, you know, that expertise at your fingertips.

Lisa Holland: 12:08

Just crazy, you know, really amazing professionals. And so I didn't go to Dr. Google at the time. And the second time, I didn't go to Dr. Google either.

Sonia Nolan: 12:19

Do you reckon that that's actually been a helpful strategy for you, Lis?

Lisa Holland: 12:22

100%?

Sonia Nolan: 12:22

Yeah, yeah, not not googling your symptoms, and googling what others are experiencing? Or what else? Because it can really mess with your head?

Lisa Holland: 12:31

Look, I think it's that sign, I think, I'm not a doctor. But I could certainly research. So which rabbit hole do I go down. And I think a lot of people that I've spoken to have gone down those rabbit holes, and ended up in a dark place, there's that. And secondly, your mind is already so full, like kind of, you know, researching things too much. Listening to do your journey is your individual journey, you might find similarities or things that you can associate or, or get comfort or find hope for in someone else's journey. But particularly your medical journey will be your own. No, no two people are the same, right? So, you know, it's easy to get trapped into that space where someone might say, "Oh, but I did this," you know, and but that might not apply to you, right? And so really listening to your doctors is important. But getting back to the actual, the technicalities of it is because I was so young, and I agreed to go on a trial with Arlene, which was the triple negative breast cancer trial, which actually, today because of that trial, is what's used to treat triple negative breast cancer patients. So I feel really grateful and privileged that being part of that trial has led to the understanding worldwide, that this treatment helps triple negative breast cancer patients. So that was important to me. That was one way I got control back was I went on about three different trials every time Arlene said,"Lisa, will you go on this trial," I went, "Yes."

Sonia Nolan: 14:15

Yep, absolutely.

Lisa Holland: 14:16

Because I thought if I'm gonna die, at least I'm contributing to something bigger than me. And so that really gave me a lot of hope. But because I was so young, and they knew that the intensity of the treatment they were about to put me on - because don't get they didn't know whether it would work. So the theory was, we will slam this person with more drugs than they should be able to take to see if that shocks the cancer out of their body. So the first thing before I even - no, I went into surgery first - again, this was really new at the time. They actually did what's called a lumpectomy, which is where they don't remove the whole breast. I had three or four cancerous tumours in my left breast. And so they did the lumpectomy. And they had a new test, which is now used with all women now, but they were still trialling it back then, where they injected like a radiation into the primary node cancer before you went into surgery, and then it would travel along the lymph nodes and go into the primary lymph node. And so the theory was, then when you're under the knife, they would remove that lymph node, biopsy it while you were still in the operation and see if cancer had moved and metastisised to the lymph nodes. So they did that for me. And I went into surgery had the all the cancer removed. But they found nothing in that lymph node. So that was joyous. That was just like, Whoa, it hasn't moved, the best thing a cancer patient can be told is their cancer hasn't moved, specially when you have it in your boob, because not having boobs is not going to kill you, right? And so you can handle cancer in your boobs as long as it doesn't move to your brain or your lungs or something which you actually need. But I think it was four days after they came back. And they'd further biopsied it, and they actually found more cancer. So then within another week, I had to go back into surgery and have all the lymph nodes removed from from my left armpit, which has a lot of implications for our lymphedema, that type of thing, it just takes it up and it kind of the cancer then becomes a different sort of cancer. But you've got to also remember that I have this, I have a baby as well. And so I can't be with the baby. You know, I'm in hospital for weeks on end. So that was a really trying time, and I emerged from the surgery. And then the next thing they pretty much want you on chemotherapy straightaway. But because I was so young, I got a month where my oncologist said you can do fertility treatment to save some eggs. So for all you people out there who've gone through fertility treatment, I did it in three weeks, all the injections, all that type of thing. It was just, and that was Hollywood fertility treatment, they did it for free for me, because again, back then young women getting this sort of cancer just wasn't a thing.

Sonia Nolan: 17:21

And a lot of women who do have breast cancer, like you've said, when it's in your older years, there are different things that you're dealing with, as a young woman who's just started a family, like literally eight weeks prior had a new baby, and with the hope of having more children, having to do that fertility treatment in between such radical test trials, international trials, and then knowing that you have to go into chemo. I mean, if that doesn't mess with your brain, what does, you know? Well, you one of the pioneers to make sure that it's better for

Lisa Holland: 17:54

You kind of - you're right, Son. But I was on autopilot. You've got to choose, you make a choice "I want to live" and I see a future I have hope for a future. And that hope involves having more children. And so I'm going to - despite women now. Thank goodness. everything which has happened in everything, which is going to happen, I'm going to actually do this because I don't think I'm going to be dead in less than a year. So you know, I kind of did the fertility treatment, then it was into chemotherapy and the chemotherapy was horrific. Now let me reassure everyone else. I know women now who are going through the triple negative breast cancer, chemotherapy, oh my god, it's so much better. It really is. It's they they are better with steroids and with other things that they sit around the chemotherapy treatment which will help you get through it. So like kind of please don't take this part of the story is being, don't be scared by this because in the last 23 years, it really has changed. Oh my God, but back then it was terrible. They really, they were trying to work it out. I was so sick, I would have chemotherapy every three weeks. I had all the side effects of chemotherapy, no hair, mouth ulcers, constantly felt like I had a hangover. The worst sort of hangover you could ever have.

Sonia Nolan: 19:22

I like how you had to clarify hangover. I mean from a non drinker over here, I've got no idea what you're talking about.

Lisa Holland: 19:28

Yeah, people out there will understand.

Sonia Nolan: 19:31

The rest of the world will understand.

Lisa Holland: 19:33

But yeah, it was it was awful. I mean, I've never, never felt so sick. And I tried to be a mum during that time as well. I mean, thank goodness my mum helped me so much during that time and my husband at the time, also stepped in. And the other thing is because we had no control on we were told it was bad luck, we also looked at what we could control so things like diet, we changed our diet. If that was about the only thing I could cope with, I mean, even to be prepared to get the next dose of chemo, I had to have injections in my stomach to get my bloods to a place where they were even good enough to get the next lot. That went on I'm gonna say for five months, it might have been six months. And then it was straight into radiotherapy, which was basically - that was every day for..

Sonia Nolan: 20:29

It was

Lisa Holland: 20:29

I'm going to say five weeks. I don't know, it

Sonia Nolan: 20:31

It was. Because I used to come across and down and could be longer. sit with Drew, so I would feed him, because I had a new baby at the same time. So I had Eliana, and so I would bring - in the morning Paul would go off to work, Dean would go - your husband at the time would go off to work. And I'd bring my baby Eliana and I'd come over and I would sit and feed the babies. So I'd sit and feed Drew while you went off to radiotherapy. So that was our little routine.

Lisa Holland: 20:55

And that's again where friends are so important, friends and family and your support network. But radiotherapy I was lucky, I was so young that my skin could handle. I've still got my three tattoos. They're the only tattoos I have on my body. But they give you a little pinprick tattoo to line up where they're going to actually do the radiotherapy.

Sonia Nolan: 21:17

Literally tattoos?

Lisa Holland: 21:18

Yeah. Like we're still here, like kind there, see that one?

Sonia Nolan: 21:22

So there you go, so you can say you've got tattoos? Yeah. I like that about you. I like that about you, go on.

Lisa Holland: 21:27

Yeah. So look, that was the first journey. And really, it didn't end there. I mean, once you finish all the treatment, then you've got to learn to live with cancer. They never tell you, "you're cured." They never tell you. It's gone. So for me, it was a life changing event. I look back at that first journey with - and certainly didn't feel this at the time. But you know, anyone who knows me knows that. It changed me fundamentally, I went from being one person who was very career focused, very ego driven, very narcissistic. Very, yeah, I look back at the person I was and don't really like that person.

Sonia Nolan: 22:15

I just need to step in there, because Lisa, you and I have been lifelong friends, since we were about 16 or 17 years old. And I think you've been pretty harsh on yourself there. Because I don't think I'd be that person's friend. So there were a lot of wonderful qualities, too. But you absolutely did an enormous amount of self reflection at the time when you when you got cancer. And then we're, you know, on a completely different journey.

Lisa Holland: 22:40

That's probably a kinder way of putting it, I'm sometimes be harsh on myself. And I think when something happens to you again, with no reason, you know, depending on what you believe in, you know, if you have faith or don't have faith, but for me, it was easier to sort of blame myself. And yeah, it was easier for me to blame myself.

Sonia Nolan: 22:59

Sure. Because then again, I could get some control because I could change myself, right. And I am not ashamed to admit, I started meeting with a psychologist, a healer. Really, for me, finding- my friends supported me and my family supported me -But finding an independent third party was really important for me, and, you know, different people suit different people. So you know, for me, it was someone who kind of leant more towards working with your spirit and your soul. I can sit very much in my head. As you know, I've got three university degrees. I'm like, very, like kind of, I can get very, very focused in the head. You're a thinker. For sure. The greatest strategist, you're amazing. Amazing. So your thinking is your superpower. And also your nemesis, right?

Lisa Holland: 24:00

Yeah, that's exactly right. So my healing journey had to go into a space, which I was very uncomfortable with. I won't, I won't dwell on that. That's probably a whole different story. But that that healing journey enabled me to do a lot of self reflection. A lot of what do I like about myself? What don't I like about myself? How do I see myself living my life? What changes do I need to make? And in a nutshell, what that led to was me moving out of the corporate world, and setting up my own consultancy, which I've done pretty much for the last - 2002 - last 20 plus years. And what that looked like was working for myself, choosing projects which were meaningful to me, but yeah, just kind of always, I live every day now, even today, thinking about cancer in some way, and the fact that I might die. I mean, it's just that simple. And it's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. You know, I have, I can say that. And it fills me with hope. Because it means that, from that time so early in my life, I understand mortality. And I understand how precious life is. And I just don't take it for granted. And, you know, it, it's been such a blessing because it's made me make choices around my relationship with my children, which is probably the most powerful thing. And the thing I'm most grateful for, like, although I've worked my whole life, and I love working, I love challenges. I love -

Sonia Nolan: 25:46

Complexity. You love big problems.

Lisa Holland: 25:47

I love big problems. I work for big companies, like, you know, Rio Tinto and Woodside and these big, big companies. But I love being a mother more. And that's

Sonia Nolan: 25:57

You're so not a baby person. the gift that cancer gave me. It made me recognise that this relationship you have with these babies, not a baby person, but they're better as they grow up. But that's fine.

Lisa Holland: 26:10

I'm not a baby person. But the relationship you have with your children is just so precious. You've had you know, that's I've balanced to my life since then. With my children as my focus as you have.

Sonia Nolan: 26:27

I just want to jump in there because now you're using that beautiful word, children. So I want to take us back to the fact that - Thank God you didn't die in 12 months, right? You didn't die. Oh my god. We're so happy about that.

Lisa Holland: 26:42

Me too.

Sonia Nolan: 26:43

Yeah, yeah. And you went through incredible, you know, fertility treatment, chemotherapy, radiotherapy, new baby new mothering mastitis, like my gosh, everything piled into a six month period of time, like it was just a crazy time. And then, at some point, you got better. And you were able to make a decision about having another baby.

Lisa Holland: 27:11

Yeah, it took a long time to get better. Like I ended up in hospital lot. I think one of my favourite stories is that I got an infection in my elbow.

Sonia Nolan: 27:21

Sorry, I shouldn't laugh.

Lisa Holland: 27:22

It was stupid!

Sonia Nolan: 27:23

It was a little bit ridiculous, isn't it? After everything you'd been through,

Lisa Holland: 27:26

I got an infection in my elbow. And it was coming up to my first New Year's after my treatment had finished. I think I had a fluffy little hair, but it hadn't fully grown back.

Sonia Nolan: 27:36

I know you're beautiful little fluffy hair, yes.

Lisa Holland: 27:38

And I was so looking forward to new year's and I just wanted to have the best time and in the couple of weeks leading up to New Year's I got this red infection in my elbow. And I go to the GP and they would draw with a black marker around it and go, "okay, Lisa, if it goes beyond the marker it means it's spreading, right? You're immune compromised very much you're going to have to end up in hospital." And I'm going "I'm not missing out on New Years." So anyhow, I went in the lead up to New Year's, it ended up the marker ended up down in my hand. I was so bloody determined. And I went. Anyhow, New Year's day I was in hospital for over a week on drip antibiotics trying to actually, yeah.

Sonia Nolan: 28:19

You made New Year's Eve. Technically you shouldn't have but you did.

Lisa Holland: 28:23

That was a bit silly. But to answer Sonya's question, after a few years- so of course, the amount of chemo I had pushed me into menopause.

Sonia Nolan: 28:34

Whole other story, right? So tell us about that.

Lisa Holland: 28:37

Yes, at 31. I went through menopause. And because they didn't know what had caused the breast cancer, I was not allowed to have any treatments because they're all hormone based. So new mum. Just imagine menopause hitting you at 31. If anyone's been through it, all the symptoms hitting you all at once.

Sonia Nolan: 28:58

And early menopause is a real thing for a lot of women. And yours was induced by the treatment and by the cancer.

Lisa Holland: 29:07

Yeah. And that went on - I didn't get my periods back for, I'm gonna say three years, for a long time. And they didn't think they were going to come back. But they did. They came back on their own probably because I was so young.

Sonia Nolan: 29:19

And you changed your health too, like you change your eating and you were really focused on that. Do you think that that helped?

Lisa Holland: 29:26

I don't know. I don't know, Son, we did change the way we ate, we cut dairy out of our diet for 10 years, which I don't recommend it's cheese and ice cream and possibly two of the best things in the world. But anyhow, you can try that if you want to. But yeah, I got my periods back. And you know, I wanted to have a baby and for probably the next year, every time I saw Arlene, my oncologist. She was like "no, no, we don't know. We don't know why you got the cancer. You got it just after you had a baby. We can't link it to any hormones, but no," basically. I mean, I'm sure I had the final say, but I was listening to my doctors, if you recall. Anyhow, long story short, kept coming back to her finally she said "look Lisa, we'll monitor you, we'll support you if you want to try and get pregnant," and I did get pregnant with my little miracle baby Amber.

Sonia Nolan: 30:28

And was that through the fertility? No, that was natural, natural, natural, which is even more of a gift.

Lisa Holland: 30:34

Yeah, yep. And I got pregnant. So that's why I have such a big age difference between my kids. And yeah, I was able to carry that pregnancy and had my daughter in May 2007. So that was, yeah, what, five and a half, six years after it all started. And that was just amazing. And I was so lucky.

Sonia Nolan: 30:59

Lisa, after the first cancer, breast cancer, and you'd had a lumpectomy and you'd had a lot of work, and a lot of attention on your breasts. What happened? What choice did you make at that time to try and, as a young woman, to try and I guess regain your body in some way? Regain control, because you've talked about control and there's not a lot of control you had.

Lisa Holland: 31:24

Yeah, it was funny, because one thing anyone who knows me knows I'm not a vain person, like I'm sitting here with no makeup on like you know, it's just not part of my nature to be vain. And, you know, caring about how you look, it's not a bad thing, it's just not part of my DNA, really. But because of all the surgery on the breast, one breast was significantly smaller. I'm talking to cup sizes smaller than the other breast. And I was only in my 30s. And I just was always conscious of it, self-conscious of it. And I remember - how old would I have been - just trying to think if it was before I had Amber.

Sonia Nolan: 32:11

Yeah it was. It was definitely before you had Amber. I remember you taking me - you came over for dinner, and you took me to the laundry, my laundry and you ripped up your t-shirt and said, "Look at these!"

Lisa Holland: 32:25

I did that to a few people. The funny thing is, that when you have so much surgery on your breasts, they lose any kind of sense of sexuality. They just become it's like showing someone your elbow or your knee or something. So I had to kind of re educate myself that showing my boobs to people wasn't really acceptable practice.

Sonia Nolan: 32:42

They was beautiful, though, I have to say. They did a good job.

Lisa Holland: 32:46

So um, so yeah, so I made that I went back to my oncologist. And I said to her, I said, "Look, can I - would you contemplate supporting me in getting the one side reconstructed, so it was the same size as the other side?" And she was like "100%, Lisa," you know, like, "you feeling good about how you look in your body, and not associating your breasts with disease, and ugliness and death, anything like that I support" and there was a brilliant doctor. I'm not sure if he's still practising, but Dr. Tony Connell in Subiaco who specialised in dealing with women who had had breast cancer and had mastectomy and lumpectomies. And he was such a great man, because he just had the personality for it and, and took all the self- conscious... I think he does cosmetic surgery with people who choose to have cosmetic surgery as well. But he kind of had this side thing where he did it, you know, at a lesser price. And just to support women, that was his way of sort of giving back. So I did- I had the reconstruction, well not the reconstruction, no, the implants put in and it balanced my boobs out again. And yeah, it just made me feel better about myself. And that was a important decision for me.

Sonia Nolan: 34:12

So we're fast forwarding now to 2017. And what

Lisa Holland: 34:16

Back in 2015, and 2016, I'd done this really great happened then? piece of work with one of the large global companies. And it involved a lot of travel around the world. And it was really brilliant from a career point of view, a real highlight for me, I worked with a lovely bunch of women. And sort of - that came to an end at the end of 2017. And I always get tested, in fact, my next test is in a week's time so I always get tested in February/March for my mammogram. So I sort of finished that piece of work, was thinking about what I was going to do next. Amber, my daughter, was 10, and my son was in Year 10. So he was 15 or 16 And I went and had my mammogram. And I can't tell you that I knew, I didn't like I couldn't tell by that time. Scenographers weren't wishing you to, you know, the best around gifts and the present. They were probably a little bit different from that.

Sonia Nolan: 35:15

That's right. They were told "no platitude."

Lisa Holland: 35:17

No, none of that. But I got my results. And they'd found two different sorts of breast cancer. And where this is interesting, and probably a bit weird and unusual, because you know, I'm a bit special, putting inverted brackets, is that it was two different sorts of breast cancers in one breast. So it was

Sonia Nolan: 35:36

Was it the same breast?

Lisa Holland: 35:38

Ah, yes same breast.

Sonia Nolan: 35:39

The left breast again?

Lisa Holland: 35:40

Yeah, and one was like, I'm trying to remember what they call it. I think it's like calcification or something. So what that is, is it's one of the earliest sorts of breast cancer, which is like little specks. And so a lot of women who are diagnosed with very early breast cancer, that's what they have. And it hasn't sort of formed a lump. It's just a little speck through the breast. But then they also found a couple of lumps, which was what was the third one I talked about earlier, which was HER2 positive. So what was hard for me to get my head around is that this was not linked in any way to the triple negative. So it wasn't like - most people, the cancer comes back. This was actually two new different sorts of breast cancer, which was good in one way. Because it meant that the cancer hadn't come back, which means that it hadn't been lurking around and waiting to say "hi, I'm back!" But but it was also complex, because it's two completely different sorts of breast cancer. And the way it works is that they take the more serious one, and that's what they call it. So and that's then what they treat you on.

Sonia Nolan: 36:46

And how old were you at this point?

Lisa Holland: 36:50

So this was 2017. I would have just turned 36 - no, 46! Holy sh*t, I nearly lost a decade, then. Yeah, no, I was 46. Yeah. So still actually quite young.

Sonia Nolan: 37:04

Still young for your second bout of breast cancer and a completely different type of cancer. Yes. So one that they knew a lot more about, right? It wasn't mystery, triple negative, can you be a guinea pig trial person? It was like we know this cancer.

Lisa Holland: 37:21

Yeah, and in fact, they knew I had heard about their cancer back when I had my first cancer. They'd done the trials and they were treating it so I knew they'd been treating this cancer for 20 years, or 15 years. 15 years. Isn't it funny how time messes with your head?

Sonia Nolan: 37:38

It does, it means we're getting older, Lisa.

Lisa Holland: 37:40

I know, crazy. That's better than being dead.

Sonia Nolan: 37:44

So true. Exactly. There's hope. There's hope.

Lisa Holland: 37:48

So yeah, and how did I feel? I felt angry. The second time, I wasn't as scared. I just felt really angry. I felt like I'd paid my dues.

Sonia Nolan: 37:59

You'd done it already.

Lisa Holland: 38:00

I felt like I'd...yeah, paid my dues is the best way to put it. I felt like why, why? What have I done? Like, kind of, why should this be happening? Why do I have to do this again? But at least with this one, they knew more about it. So I had more information. I knew Arlene who - and her husband, Peter Wilshere, he was my surgeon. So even though David Ingram by this stage had retired, and Tony Connell was going to be the reconstruction, so I knew the doctors and I trusted them. And so that helped. I didn't have a baby. So that helped. That helped a lot. And of course, I'm touching wood at the moment because I don't want really use the word"beaten," but I knew that I'd got through it before. I knew, you know, I knew it couldn't have been that hard again, right?

Sonia Nolan: 38:55

There was hope there.

Lisa Holland: 38:56

There was hope. I knew I was older, I was better equipped to deal with it. And I was angry. So it kind - that was beating me a bit. I was like, you know, "f*ck you cancer, you're gonna come back, you've picked the wrong person to fight with, right?"

Sonia Nolan: 39:10

Big time, big time.

Lisa Holland: 39:10

So I kind of went into it like that. And what I noticed - and this I'd like to say this really clearly to give hope to other people on their cancer journey is that the improvements in treatment for cancer were mind blowing to me, like just the way the supporting drugs that they put with the chemotherapy. Even the surgery, everything, it was so much like a well oiled machine. They knew so much more, they'd learned so much more. They had psychologists or breast cancer nurses to support the patients, like the support network was huge, right? Compared to what it had been. So it was a very, very different journey and I I hope that anyone who's starting the journey now to, you know, to let them know that that you are supported, there are people there to support you. And use those support networks, you know, really go down that path. This time, because of the calcification, cancer, which was scattered through the breasts and the lungs. And because of my age, I decided to have a mastectomy. Kind of would have had them both off, but the doctors all said, "Honestly, there's never been cancer in your right breast. So there's just no point and the recovery is a lot longer." So I chose just to have one side lopped off, and that was really traumatic surgery, I must say, just to not kind of paint any pretty picture here, because I had the surgery, I think I was under for seven and a half hours. And the way it works is that they remove all the breast tissue, which takes quite a while if you could imagine. And then the reconstruction surgeon Tony Connell comes in. And he the way he did it is he pulled a muscle from my back, pull that over and then put the implant under that. And they don't put the plan in there. They put an inflator in to stretch the muscle, which will - in itself that that whole thing is just...

Sonia Nolan: 41:23

It's a really, I would never have imagined it until I saw you go through that. And that whole inflator situation where you've literally got like a little pump inside your breasts that you have to you physically have to inflate it. Don't you, pump it?

Lisa Holland: 41:39

I'm trying to remember, I was always at the doctor's, I don't know if they did it or I think they did it.

Sonia Nolan: 41:44

Because you had to go quite regularly. And they would inflate it. So it would stretch the muscles, and the skin?

Lisa Holland: 41:49

Well the skin, as you can imagine that is quite loose, because they've removed all the tissue. But you've got a back muscle which is still connected to your back. So if I- depending on how I move, I can feel -

Sonia Nolan: 42:01

You can feel it, even to today, because it's a back muscle that's literally in your breast.

Lisa Holland: 42:06

Yeah, so it's pretty bizarre, really, if you think about it.

Sonia Nolan: 42:08

It's quite extreme

Lisa Holland: 42:10

Yeah, it is extreme. Then it was chemo again, and again, no hair, mouth ulcers. But I don't know it was unusual, I was so determined this time, and I really wasn't a victim this time. I was just like, "you know what, bring it on. Taking this on, I'm fighting it." I ended up in hospital so many times. From infections. I think I had, in less than eighteen months, five general anesthetics from surgery. I just seemed to live my whole life at the doctors. I did most of it on my own. That was my choice - that was my choice to do that. One of the worst experiences in it, is that I had to get my heart tested all the time because the drugs for this particular breast cancer can destroy your heart. And so before I went into the chemotherapy treament I had to - and this was terrible, they had to test my heart when I just had the mastectomy. So, honestly. And it was on that side - like your heart sits under your boob, right? So that was awful and then I had to go for heart tests all the time. And the chemotherapy was really different to the first time, it was over a much longer period of time. I want to say I was on chemotherapy for - definitely over 12 months.

Sonia Nolan: 43:34

It felt like that. A long time.

Lisa Holland: 43:36

I want to say it was more like 18 months.

Sonia Nolan: 43:38

It felt like a longer time than your first time.

Lisa Holland: 43:40

Yeah, it wasn't as short and sharp, it was longer. And one awful experience I had, was, I woke up in the middle of the night and I thought I was having a heart attack, I genuinely did. And I rang health direct, and they said "get an ambulance" and of course, me being me... I thought I'll drive myself to Fiona Stanley.

Sonia Nolan: 43:57

"I'll drive myself." Everyone I tell is like, Do you not have a friend, Lisa? So I was so sick. And you could imagine it, I didn't know where to park. I'd never been to the emergency department. I think I put a pair of thongs on. And I had no hair. And I remember just staggering through the hospital and someone directed me to the emergency department which was full, and I must have looked sh*t house right because they went and got a wheelchair, put me in it and just wheeled me straight into the emergency department and then hooked me up to like kind of everything you could imagine. I wasn't having a heart attack. Thank you. But as it turned out, I then had to basically get transferred straight to my oncologist hospital back into hospital there. Where I saw your friend who's a beautiful nurse there. Yeah, yes.

Lisa Holland: 44:54

So yeah, and I could tell you 10 stories like that terrible stories that you kind of go through.

Sonia Nolan: 45:03

I think what's coming through really clearly here, though, Lisa, is that you are such a strong minded person who's had enormous adversity, and you just keep fighting it, you keep bringing it on, and you are one of the strongest people I know, like, truly, what you've gone through is extraordinary, unfair to the extreme, but you are a beacon of, of strength, like really, and all the work you've done, you know, talking about, you know, the overthinking the brain and you know, then the spiritual soul work you've done, it's all created you into the most extraordinary woman, like truly. So. And that's not to say that"oh, yay, cancer helped." It's not at all to say that, but the journeys that women take, or people take, you know, the human spirit is an extraordinary thing. And you are just, thankfully living proof of that.

Lisa Holland: 46:06

Thank you. And I think, I think it is a choice. You know, I think you can choose to give up, or you can choose to be a victim. And I have been those things. And sometimes you need to sit within that space. And that's okay.

Sonia Nolan: 46:20

Because they are normal human emotion, because, you know, and I thank God. And again, I'm going to touch wood, that I've been spared all of that.

Lisa Holland: 46:32

And I hope you still do.

Sonia Nolan: 46:34

Well, I hope, the way I look at it is that - and I talk to my children about this as well, when we are strong, and we are so blessed, and we are strong and healthy. That means it's our job to be there for others who are going through tough times, because we are blessed with the strength to support and that's the point. That's the way I see it.

Lisa Holland: 46:55

Yeah that's a beautiful way of looking. And definitely, as I said, having friends who are there for you - like I never felt like, I think I never thought oh, why me and not the them? Do you know what I mean? It's, it was always like, kind of know, they're walking alongside me and they're picking me up when I'm down. And I really want to stress that emotional sort of roller coaster, I think sometimes you can become stoic in adversity. And there's maybe there's a place for that. But my advice, and my experience is more to let yourself take this emotional roller coaster. And if you're sad, and you want to spend the day feeling sorry for yourself and crying and lock your door and not talk to a soul, do that.

Sonia Nolan: 47:41

Totally.

Lisa Holland: 47:42

And then you wake up one day, and you might be in the middle of chemotherapy and physically you feel sh*t house. But you, you have hope. You think "yeah, today I'm gonna get out, you know." And, you know, on days when I was going through treatment, the best I could do was get my golden retriever, Luna, and walk around the block. And I mean, we're talking probably 500 metres, right? And I kind of would shuffle along, like kind of, you know. I never wore wigs or anything like that. So there was my little bald head, like kind of floating around for everyone to see. But you know, those days were good days.

Sonia Nolan: 48:23

That was the present that the scenographer was telling you about, Lisa.

Lisa Holland: 48:27

She - yeah, no. To get back to - so all the treatment. And one of the unusual things that happened in the second year of my treatment, was that I got a pain in my jaw. And no one could work out what it was. And they ended up having to do, it's called an MRI. I don't know all the tests. They all blend, hey. Some people are really good at knowing it's this and this I was just like, where are they wheeling me this time, right?

Sonia Nolan: 48:59

I reckon if there was a radiography bingo, you'd probably take all of them.

Lisa Holland: 49:03

Maybe yeah. I should just get a prize for my tats.

Sonia Nolan: 49:08

Exactly.

Lisa Holland: 49:09

But they wheeled me into the MRI to try and work out what was going on with my jaw. And it turned out that I had a terrible infection in a tooth, which is weird, but when your immune compromised again you get infections in the weirdest places.

Sonia Nolan: 49:27

Like your elbow.

Lisa Holland: 49:28

Like your elbow. So again, I ended up in hospital but what they realised is they couldn't save the tooth, the infection was too extreme. It was spreading through my jaw, the pain was honestly - pain for me, you can can't even imagine it, like throughout all these journeys, you just get used to living with pain. But they said we're going to remove the tooth but while they were looking at the X rays or the MRI, whatever they're called X rays. Of course, it went just down to just pass my neck. And they noticed that my thyroid, which I didn't know anything about a thyroid, but apparently picture like a little butterfly with two little wings in your neck, just above your collarbone sort of. They noticed a shadow on my thyroid. I mean, and this is where the story gets stupid. Like I even think it's stupid myself. Right? And so they're going, "Oh, what's that shadow on your thyroid" and having things wrong with your thyroid is normal, right? Lots of women. I'm sure you know, women. I certainly know women who have overactive/underactive thyroid, they're are medication, you do need your thyroid. Unlike your breasts, you do need your thyroid to live. So then I had to go - I was shoved off to a thyroid specialist, back into radiology testing. And so they were trying to biopsy - this was worse than the breast actually, they tried to biopsy my thyroid. So they're sticking a needle in my thyroid. So my neck/throat sort of thing.

Sonia Nolan: 51:05

Were you under general or anything when they were doing that?

Lisa Holland: 51:07

No!

Sonia Nolan: 51:08

Seriously?

Lisa Holland: 51:09

BIoody local anesthetic. I know it was, it was horrendous actually. And poking away, got the biopsies, didn't get any results from them, which is just like- so that was happening. But back to the tooth. So I had to have further breast surgery. And so what I did, because I'm maybe I'm a control freak, or whatever.

Sonia Nolan: 51:31

I'd say yes.

Lisa Holland: 51:32

Yes. I went and met the tooth specialist. And then I met the breast specialist. And I got them talking to each other and said,"If I'm going in for my fifth or sixth general anaesthetic, you guys are tag teaming. You're coming in and removing the tooth and then you can do the breast."

Sonia Nolan: 51:50

I remember this time and yeah, you're amazing. A master of it. But you know, it makes sense. I mean, it just totally makes sense. And you and you have to be an advocate for your own health, right?

Lisa Holland: 52:00

You do, you do. I mean, and you have choices. You have a say, you have a voice. So that was happening-

Sonia Nolan: 52:07

So they got scared and did what you said.

Lisa Holland: 52:08

Yes, they'd deny it though. If they listened to this they'd go, "we weren't scared. We always worked together." But anyhow, let's pretend I scared them into it.

Sonia Nolan: 52:15

They do now work together.

Lisa Holland: 52:18

But yeah, so that was happening back in surgery. Thyroid was happening on the side and long in the short with the thyroid is because the biopsies didn't work, they then x-rayed me again on my thyroid, and they actually found a shadow on both sides of it. And so the thyroid doctor, I can't even remember his name. He was like the end of it all, right. He was lovely. He was an expert. But he said to me, he said, "Look, Lisa, you've got a shadow on both both of your butterfly wings, basically. We don't know if either accounts or maybe both are not cancer, maybe both are cancer, maybe one is cancer, one's not. We know- you need to make a decision. Do you want us to take the left side? Do you want us to take the right side? Or do you want us to take the whole thing? If we take the right side, and it's not cancer? You've still got a shadow on the left side. We can't biopsy it. And vice versa."

Sonia Nolan: 53:19

What a decision!

Lisa Holland: 53:21

By this stage, I was just so over it. Everything. I just said "thyroid, right. If I take medication, like can I live on medication?" "Yep.""Take the whole bloody thing. Just take it, just take the whole thing." Went to go into surgery. Had a cold. So it was in their prep to go in. They took - my fever was too high. Had to go home. Had to come back the next week.

Sonia Nolan: 53:49

And what year was this Lis?

Lisa Holland: 53:50

This was towards the end of 2018.

Sonia Nolan: 53:54

2018, I thought so, yeah.

Lisa Holland: 53:55

Probably around August 2018.

Sonia Nolan: 53:59

So you're still not 50 yet?

Lisa Holland: 54:01

Oh no, I was only... I don't even think I was...

Sonia Nolan: 54:05

No you were about 47, yeah.

Lisa Holland: 54:07

I was 47, it was before my 48th birthday. So yeah, I wasn't 50. And the interesting thing too, it wasn't the breast cancer metastasized it actually when they took it out and they could biopsy it properly. It was thyroid cancer.

Sonia Nolan: 54:22

It was a whole new cancer.

Lisa Holland: 54:24

It was a whole new cancer.

Sonia Nolan: 54:25

Geez, Lisa.

Lisa Holland: 54:27

So, yeah, a bit special.

Sonia Nolan: 54:28

You are very special. We keep saying that. But you know, we don't want you to be special enough to...

Lisa Holland: 54:33

I'm sick of being special. I just want to be normal now.

Sonia Nolan: 54:37

Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa Holland: 54:38

Yeah. So that was that. And then that kind of the journey and then since then-

Sonia Nolan: 54:45

So you've had your thyroid removed, and you're now on medication for the thyroid.

Lisa Holland: 54:50

Yep, and then of course because of the chemotherapy, I got pushed back into menopause again, and so again, no treatment for that and so have gone go through that menopause journey again as well.

Sonia Nolan: 55:03

That's a bit unfair, isn't it? On any woman to have to go through menopause twice With no treatment. That's, that's harsh.

Lisa Holland: 55:09

With no treatment.

Sonia Nolan: 55:11

Absolutely, how fabulous.

Lisa Holland: 55:11

Trust me ladies out there. If you can get And that's how I live my life now is... not that treatment for menopause, don't rise above it. Do it, do it get the help. Yeah, so that's the cancer journey really. And then since the last time again, I can't say it refocused me as much as before, because I was already on a journey. And so I continue that journey. It reminds me that death is something that is just part of life, and it could happen. I don't dwell on that. I make decisions based on I could get I might die, but that each day really is a bloody gift. any of the cancers back and I could die. So I tried to live a

Sonia Nolan: 55:52

I told you she was right. So Lisa, the idea of life, which is very memories focused. So I am not really a big consumer of things. I'm a consumer of experiences. And if you follow me on Facebook, everyone, when they see me they go, "God, I wish I had your life I wish- you're so busy, like in a good way always do fun things." I've just got back this weekend, from a weekend with my beautiful 16 year old daughter, she's 16 now, we went and saw Taylor Swift we had the time of our lives. having done all that work, I guess the soul work and the spiritual work that you did with the first cancer. And you mentioned that it sort of refocused you thinking about meaningful projects and, and legacy projects. You - also amongst everything, became a published author. And you've done all sorts of very interesting work in that space. So I'd love to hear a bit more about you know, some of the books that you've written and the people that you've met along that journey.

Lisa Holland: 57:19

As a result of this journey. I've always been someone who bases my decisions on what's fair and what's not. That's why this cancer journey is really messed up with me, because as you said earlier, it doesn't seem fair. But what's not really fair is that we live in a society where there are a lot of people who are not heard. And so I had a philosophy that I wanted to give voices which were ignored, an opportunity to be heard. And because I'm a writer, I'm an ex journalist, as you know, we were journalists together. And I love writing. I'm a storyteller. I love telling stories. I was always interested in working with Aboriginal people. Even, I don't know if you know this about me. But even back when I was 17, and I was just starting uni. I actually tutored Aboriginal kids. In Rockingham. Yeah, so I am tutored Aboriginal children back in the late 80s, in Rockingham. And I just was lucky enough to get an opportunity through some support, through some major corporations to actually start recording first person stories with Aboriginal men and women in the Pilbara. And this was back in 2004. So this was a long time ago, 2005. And at that time, nobody wanted to listen to these people. And the only stories you heard about Aboriginal people were in the mass media. And it was always bad. And I just felt that that was wrong. And so from a book writing point of view, I write nonfiction. But I write it from the first person point of view. So I go and interview people, big interviews, like you know, two or three hours, they tell their life story, and then I write it up in books. And so I've done a lot of work with Aboriginal people, men and women, as I said, in the Pilbara. I've seen that change a lot over the years. In more recent years, more people are interested in hearing these stories, which is great. But equally Aboriginal people in the Pilbara are inundated with people who want to kind of get a piece of that. And so there's some pros and cons with that. But I've written quite a few books in that space. Another book I wrote, I can't stand football. I'm sorry, if I lose listeners here, then off you go.

Sonia Nolan: 59:43

It's alright, I don't think they're my genre. Yeah, but we love the Fremantle Dockers. And that's where you're going.

Lisa Holland: 59:51

Yes. So, there was a chap called Heath Black. This is years, quite a few years ago. He was a very good footballer. For the doctors and St Kildas, and he had a big story to tell, but at that time, sports people were put on pedestals and I was actually told that by a publisher, a publisher said, when I approached him to publish his book about Heath Black, and his journey of struggling with mental illness, and alcoholism, and all other sorts of things,

Sonia Nolan: 1:00:22

And adult ADHD too

Lisa Holland: 1:00:23

Adult ADHD, all sorts of things. I tried, I wrote this book with Heath, which I'm really proud of, and I'm really proud of Heath, because Heath, throughout the journey of writing the book really did a lot of self discovery. And Heath has actually gone on to talk to high school kids, boys in high school, farmers, people all around, he works for the AFL, talking about mental illness. And that sort of health and well being. He's made a huge difference. But what it started with was this book, and it started with a publisher saying to me, "we put our sports people on pedestals here in Australia, we can't tell that story of a flawed sports person." And me being me, I thought, "You know what, that's not okay. This is a story which needs to be heard, I have a son, I want him to hear this story. And I want other young men and other men to hear this story and to start talking, honestly about mental health." And even though I don't like football, lots of people do especially men. So the hook was a well known footballer. And, and it just really worked. And I ended up setting up my own publishing company called Agenda Publishing, and actually publishing the book myself. Heath went on to sell I think, close to 10,000 copies which in a nonfiction world in Australia is a lot, doesn't sound like a lot, but it is a lot. And I'm really proud of that. And I'm currently working on an amazing Aboriginal woman, Sue Gordon, her book, her memoir, and she is one of the first ad set commissioners, Stolen Generation, Gordon inquiry, one of the first ever - well, I think the first Aboriginal magistrate in the children's court, law degree, this amazing woman. And I've had the privilege of helping her write her book, which we'll be looking to release, hopefully this year as well. I've just been, I'm not going to say lucky, because I've made up my mind what I wanted to do, I was really clear on what I wanted to do. And therefore I kind of manifested and created the paths into what - as I said no to things I didn't want to do, I'm really good at saying no. And then opportunities of where I knew I could make a difference opened up. And I'm really proud of that work that I've created over the years. Because I always wanted, all I wanted was written documentation of these first person voices, so that generations to come can actually read it from the horse's mouth for wanting a better way rather than with, you know, we as journalists, we're supposed to be independent. But everyone puts filters over everything, right? And I didn't want to filter these words.

Sonia Nolan: 1:03:10

I love how you've just said, "I'm really good at saying no," because you are Lisa. So you said no to cancer the first time. You said no to cancer the second time. And you said it the third. We've done really well not to cry.

Lisa Holland: 1:03:25

I know, I know. I've had tears in my eyes the whole way through.

Sonia Nolan: 1:03:28

Yeah, you are really good at saying no. And like you said that then opens up so much more "Yes," in your life. So I want to understand for you; How could you describe hope for you, based on your experiences?

Lisa Holland: 1:03:47

Can I just say one more thing before I answer that, because it's really important to me?

Sonia Nolan: 1:03:51

Yes.

Lisa Holland: 1:03:54

One of the other things which have helped me get through my life are my friends, family is a given. So I'm not going to talk about family. But I really want to stress this to listeners. choose your friends wisely. I have been let down by friends and I have been lifted up by friends. And I think learning to understand what your boundaries are. And to see really clearly regardless of history, or friendships, how long you've been in them or not. But having women for me, it's been predominantly women. There are I have male friends as well, but it's been predominantly women. I am surrounded - you included Sonya - by the most remarkable, strong, supportive, beautiful women who I love, and I couldn't have done anything; be in a workspace, in a health space. I couldn't have achieved what I've achieved in my life. And I wouldn't be sitting here today as strong as you say that I am, without the support of those women. And I just can't stress that enough. So.

Sonia Nolan: 1:05:10

Thank you, Lisa.

Lisa Holland: 1:05:11

It goes back to your question.

Sonia Nolan: 1:05:12

My question about hope. What does hope mean to you personally?

Lisa Holland: 1:05:20

What does hope mean to me personally? That's a good question. Okay, let me think about it. All right, hope means to me that, regardless of time, like time gets taken out of it. So I think people think a good life has to be a long life, or we have to meet a certain sort of formula. For me hope is actually like kind of sitting, having a dream or a vision or a goal, depending on the different parts of your life that you're looking at, or a relationship or anything. And it, it working it being beautiful and reaffirming, and, and I often use the word contentment. So for me, the ultimate goal, and I don't know if this fits in with hope. But the ultimate goal for me is to be content, to not want more, to wake up in the morning, which I do most mornings. And go, "I am so grateful. I am so happy. I am so content." And that that gives me hope, because I think I don't need anything more.

Sonia Nolan: 1:06:38

Lisa, thank you so much for joining me around the warm table this morning. It's been a joy, and I followed your story. I've been with you in that journey. And I've even learned more things about, you know, how that journey played out for you at the time, because at the time we were just in it. And sitting here and having this opportunity to, to relive it in a way but with so much more wisdom, and hindsight has been a real privilege for me. So I love you. And I'm glad you've been here around my warm table.

Lisa Holland: 1:07:11

I love you too. And I just want to thank you not only for walking alongside and holding my hand through this, you have no idea how much it's meant to me. But also, My Warm Table is so important. You're doing such an amazing job sharing voices that- similar to what I do with writing books, maybe wouldn't be heard. And I think we do need to celebrate and what you do through My Warm Table is you celebrate those voices which are often lost. And we as a society need to listen to the little voices, to the stories of hope. So I'm just so privileged to be invited to take part in this Sonya. So thank you.

Kelli Reilly FOFF: 1:08:01

Hi, I'm Kelly Riley creator and head coach of Females Over 45 Fitness or FOFF as we are fondly called. Our studio is located in Victoria Park and we are also online all across Australia. At FOFF our members range in age from 45 through 84 years of age at the moment. They're amazing examples of hope. Let's meet one of our members now and be inspired by her story.

Katie FOFF: 1:08:28

My name is Katie, I'm in my 60s. Just want to talk a little bit about my fitness journey that I've had recently. I decided to retire a couple of years ago I'd been sitting at a desk for well over 10 years and having done no exercise whatsoever and knew it was time to make a change. Having seen all the adverts on social media, I contacted Kelly Riley at Female Over 45 Fitness, went down and had a chat with her, she showed me around told me about the philosophy and I knew immediately that that was the journey that I wanted to take. So I signed up there and then. Females Over 45 Fitness is like having a personal trainer, but with the added bonus of working out with like minded ladies who are all working to their personal goals. No pressure is ever put on anyone and workouts are tailored to all abilities. Everyone is very supportive and cheers on our achievements. I've made some amazing friendships, which extends to coffee after class, catch up lunches and walking at the weekends. And two and a half years later, I'm pleased to say that I've lost seven and a half kilos in weight, I've lost just over 10% body fat, and importantly gain 2% muscle. I would recommend Females Over 45 Fitness to any lady over 45. It's never too late to start your fitness journey and the rewards are immense.

Sonia Nolan: 1:09:45

Thanks for joining us around the warm table. My Warm Table is produced hosted and edited by me, Sonia Nolan. It's my way of amplifying positivity and curiosity in our community. I invite you to share this conversation with family and friends, and follow My Warm Table podcast on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can subscribe and follow My Warm Table on Spotify or Apple podcasts, and maybe even leave a review because it helps others to find us more easily.