Respect @ Work with Franca Sala Tenna

PASSION: Changing workplace behaviours for the better.
PURPOSE: Translating the law on workplace behaviours through interactive theatre and training workshops through her business EEO Specialists.

The laws have changed around workplace behaviour. In fact more change has occurred in the last 2 years than 20 years prior …

So this is an important episode for everyone with a job - because you need to know where the new line in the sand is when it comes to sexual harassment, discrimination and bullying.

Now it might sound like a heavy topic, but luckily I’m joined around the warm table by Franca Sala Tenna – she’s the non lawyer’s lawyer and the Director and Founder of EEO Specialists – a company with a passion for changing behaviours for the better. 

Warm thanks to:
Sponsor: Females Over Forty-five Fitness in Victoria Park
Sound Engineering: Damon Sutton
Music: William A Spence
... and all our generous and inspiring guests around the warm table this season!

Transcript

Sonia Nolan: 0:00

Welcome to My Warm Table. I'm Sonia Nolan and season two of this podcast about passion and purpose is brought to you by Females Over 45 Fitness or FOFF in Victoria Park.

Introductory Voice Over of Previous Guests: 0:13

My name is Kate Chaney. My name is Bonnie Davies. My name is Madeleine King. My name is Valerio Fantinelli. My name is Lyn Beazley. My name is Alexandra Helen Flanagan Hi, my name is Sharon Todd. My name is Lucy Cooke and I'm the CEO of SpaceDraft. I'm the first Aboriginal female funeral director. CEO and founder of Motion by the Ocean. I'm a psychologist and a professor in psychology at Curtin University. CEO and founder of Lionheart Camp for Kids. Around My Warm Table. Or listening on Sonia Nolan's My Warm Table. Just sharing a yarn with her.

Sonia Nolan: 0:36

When we sit around the Warm Table with family and friends, the conversation often strays to what's happening at work. And maybe you've heard stories of workplace bullying, harassment and discrimination, as people battle old stereotypes and behaviours that managers once upon a time used to turn a blind eye to, but in fact, they can't be ignored anymore. You would have had to have been living under a rock for the last couple of years not to realise that the laws have changed around workplace behaviour. In fact, more change has happened in the last two years than 20 years prior. So this is an important episode for pretty much anyone with the job, because you need to know where the new line in the sand is when it comes to sexual harassment, discrimination and bullying. Now, it might sound like a heavy topic, but luckily, I'm joined by Franca Sala Tenna. She's the non-lawyers lawyer and the director and founder of EEO Specialists. It's a company with a passion for changing behaviours for the better. Franca, thank you so much for popping over and having a cup of with me.

Franca Sala Tenna: 1:48

My pleasure.

Sonia Nolan: 1:49

So Franca, you're a lawyer?

Franca Sala Tenna: 1:51

Yes. In recovery.

Sonia Nolan: 1:52

In recovery. So what does that actually mean? How are you recovering?

Franca Sala Tenna: 1:57

Yes, that's right. Well, it means about 14 years ago now. I stepped out of courtrooms, stepped out of what my teenage sons would say was real law. And I stepped into rooms with people in workplaces to talk with them about behaviours, particularly the unlawful ones. So sexual harassment, discrimination and bullying. And my whole focus back then was for people to be given the opportunity to not end up in court basically, not end up in court.

Sonia Nolan: 2:33

Where you would have seen them at the end of the process.

Franca Sala Tenna: 2:36

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I have a real belief that good people get it wrong. Particularly in how we treat each other in the workplace. We come from a very, you know, we are a very Aussie environment, lots of banter, lots of humour, lots of laughter. And often people don't realise when what they've said or done has now crossed over into something unlawful. And I remember being in court, and my experience was that pretty much the only one who wins once you're in the court system are lawyers. And so my aim is keep people out of court. How do we create better workplaces? How do I ensure that good people don't get it wrong?

Sonia Nolan: 3:15

So you want to keep them out of the courtroom?

Franca Sala Tenna: 3:17

I do.

Sonia Nolan: 3:18

And is that something that you saw when you were in the courtroom? I'm not sure what kind of law you

Franca Sala Tenna: 3:21

So actually, I didn't work in this area. I practiced.

Sonia Nolan: 3:22

Sounds like, you know, we've heard about was a criminal lawyer. Okay, so I worked at Legal Aid. I represented juvenile offenders, I did a lot of work with women preventative medicine. It sounds like you're going into who were victims of domestic violence. Back when the funding was there for refugees, I also work with refugees. So all of the work I did was with Legal Aid. And so that was my background. And I saw a lot in the criminal justice system that

Franca Sala Tenna: 3:46

Yes. Well, and you know, Sonia, that is preventative law. wasn't great. But in the area that I work in now, a lot of it has really come through investigations that I've done. such a good point because 12th of December, I feel like the So when an organisation decides they want to conduct a formal investigation, sometimes they'll phone in me to do that. And so I met a lot of people who, I didn't think they were bad 12th of December 2022 is going to be carved in my mind because people. But what they had done and the impact it had had on the other person wasn't great. And then of course, you know, I love that was probably the most significant legislative change reading cases, I am a lawyer. So there still is a little bit of

Sonia Nolan: 4:13

And, and trying to manage all the impact across- that geeky lawyer left in me that likes to read the nuances of a case. So many cases that I read, I thought I can understand that Australia has made in this space about people and unlawful why that person said or did that thing. Doesn't make it okay, but I can understand, and I wonder if someone had talked to them about it, would they have known and would the outcome of being behaviours. Up until that point in time, we had a reactive different and, and that's and so that's really been my heart's passion for the last 14 years. complaint based approach to these behaviours, which meant employer could have done nothing about it, got away with it unless someone sued them. And then they had to show what they had done. But on the 12th of December the Respect at Work Act kicked in. And what that says is that employers have a proactive duty, so that preventative duty. So for me, who's been working in this space for so long, it kind of warms my heart, because I'm like, yes, at last, we're actually doing it well, actually the ripple effect of this in the workplace. So the Respect at Work Bill was - is significant, not even a was it is very legit trying to prevent it happening, instead of compensating people workout. It's live. It's very, very live and very, very front of mind for a lot of organisations. It appears that there's so much legislation that's colliding or converging once it has happened. might be a better way of looking at it.

Franca Sala Tenna: 6:16

I think converging is a good way looking at it. Having been in this space for 14 years, in the last... really September 2021, was when we had the first legislative change related to the respect- the prior respect at work. And that was with a new definition of sex based harassment. So 18 months, I have seen more legislative changes in this space around unlawful behaviours than probably the previous 20 years, so we are - this is an unprecedented time, unprecedented. And I don't think most employers know that yet. I think they're going to get a really rude shock in the second half of the year, because what has made these behaviours and this legislation now proactive duty, instead of reactive, is on the 12th of December this year.

Sonia Nolan: 7:08

So 2023.

Franca Sala Tenna: 7:09

Yeah, 2023, the Australian Human Rights Commission will be granted the power to go into any workplace and conduct an audit in relation to whether they are taking reasonable and proportionate measures to eliminate a whole range of behaviours, of which sexual harassment and gender discrimination and sex based harassment are three of the top ones. So I'm like, watch out people, like if you aren't doing anything in this space, you need to be, and what I've noticed, as someone who has been in this space for 14 years, I have had more inquiries in the first three months of this year. So we're now first of April, right. I've had more inquiries in the first three months of this year than I probably had for the 12 months prior. So there are some workplaces that are getting on to it. But there's a whole lot more I suspect that as the year progresses, and there's media coverage around it, that they will be like what are we actually have to do here? So it's a big deal.

Sonia Nolan: 8:11

It is a big deal. And I think one of the changes as well, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, is that past legislation had a, I guess, a minimum number of employees that you had to have in order for this legislation to be effective. How has it changed? Has it extended in it's reach?

Franca Sala Tenna: 8:29

No, but there are- in relation to unfair dismissal. There are still requirements in place that if you I think it's less than 15 employees? You're not- it's not the same onerous duty around unfair dismissal. But actually, for this legislation, it has always applied to all workplaces. But what it does say is it talks about that the employer has to take reasonable and proportionate measures. And so what constitutes reasonable and proportionate? They do look at the size of a workplace. They do look at, you know, their budget, their earning capacity. So of course, the bigger you are, the more you're going to have to do. Yeah, but everybody should be doing some things.

Sonia Nolan: 9:14

Some things, they should be doing, what sort of things should they be doing?

Franca Sala Tenna: 9:17

Yes. Okay. Everyone should have a policy and procedure around workplace behaviours, what they are and what we tolerate, and don't tolerate.

Sonia Nolan: 9:26

Is that everything from dress code to...

Franca Sala Tenna: 9:29

No, it doesn't have to go that far.

Sonia Nolan: 9:31

But a code of conduct would probably do that.

Franca Sala Tenna: 9:34

That's right. So, I always talk about two different policy documents, so everyone should have one around harassment, discrimination and bullying because all of those behaviours are unlawful. And so they really need to be educating their people that these are things that you're protected from, if this is happening to you, so they should also have a complaint management process, if this is happening to you, here's what you can do about it.

Sonia Nolan: 9:58

And can we just take a step back and can you give me a definition for harassment.

Franca Sala Tenna: 10:03

I'll give you a definition for sexual harassment. Harassment gets used, often very broadly and interchanged with bullying, which actually is quite different, quite a specific. So sexual harassment, which, of course, is the one that biggest issue, and also the one that's received the most media attention in the last almost two years. So sexual harassment is any unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature. And the courts have created a hypothetical imaginary reasonable person, because they don't think we are. And, and so what that reasonable person is supposed to do is that they look at the behaviour complained of, and they asked the question, is it possible that someone could be offended or humiliated or intimidated by that behaviour? So that's the definition of sexual harassment.

Sonia Nolan: 10:56

And that reasonable person? That hypothetical- hypothetical court.You know, generated, created reasonable person is standard for every single workplace. You don't have one reasonable person for yours. And I'll have a little bit-

Franca Sala Tenna: 11:14

A more relaxed.

Sonia Nolan: 11:14

A more relaxed, a little bit unreasonable person, but the same standard applies. Good start, isn't it?

Franca Sala Tenna: 11:18

Exactly right. And so people don't realise that they're like, "Oh, we're a bit more relaxed here than people on St. George's terrace", it's like, actually doesn't matter. It's the same reasonable person. And the other thing that people don't realise about that definition is how Right? It's a very good set. And that's what I expansive things of a sexual nature are. So I'll go into very male dominated workforces, we tend to have a lot of work with them. And when I'll ask them, you know, what do you think sexual harassment is they'll go,"Yep, I know, don't touch someone's bits, and don't show them your bits." say, good start, right? Because those things actually are also criminal offences as well, right. indecent assault and exposure. That's right. But actually, this definition includes any time anyone says anything that references the sexual parts of the body, whether they've used the anatomically correct names or not, if they've drawn images of those parts of the body, even if they're badly drawn, right? If we know that it's a penis, then it's still a sexual part of the body, and that's still unlawful. And also, when people might tell a joke in a group context or send it in an email. Often people think, Well, I haven't directed it specifically at anybody, and therefore I haven't sexually harassed them. Whereas a joke told in a group of people can also be sexual harassment. So it's very broad.

Sonia Nolan: 12:45

Yeah, and not even- I guess even a joke. But you know, I was reading a case, Franca that you showed me recently where an employer was at colleagues farewell. And they said, "Oh, look, you know, great work. But you know, I only gave her the job because of a breasts."

Franca Sala Tenna: 13:02

I know, like, right?

Sonia Nolan: 13:04

Like why would you even go there?

Franca Sala Tenna: 13:06

I know. I know.

Sonia Nolan: 13:07

So that sexual harassment. And diminishing the person. There's so much with.

Franca Sala Tenna: 13:12

Yeah, yeah, there's so- and sometimes people

Sonia Nolan: 13:14

And everybody knows how to behave in the workplace. say to me, "Look, I hear that that stuff happened in the past, but not in 2023." I can't tell you some stuff that I'm dealing with at the moment in supporting clients, because they are live issues. But what I can tell you is in the last two weeks, I have had clients come to me with inappropriate sexual comments

Franca Sala Tenna: 13:35

That's right. Yeah, that's right. and behaviours, that probably would surprise most people to

Sonia Nolan: 13:36

Okay, that's your goal.

Franca Sala Tenna: 13:38

It is my goal. I'm working on a 10 year think that that's happening. And what I can say is, yes, it is. Unfortunately, it's happening. And it's still very much a live issue and one that...yeah, I mean, look I would love - by the way - I would love if I go to a party some time and someone said to me, what do you do for a job, Franca? And I could say to them,"Look, I used to run training around sexual harassment and bullying and discrimination, but I don't - I've retired now because everyone's workplace is just fantastic." I actually would love that. I look forward to that day, Sonia, where I go, there are no problems. I've decided to retire. plan. So let's see if I can do it for 14 years.

Sonia Nolan: 14:30

So we've spent a little bit of time thinking about sexual harassment and its definition. Can you tell us a bit about the definition of bullying? Because that's a word that's really banded around a lot. And I hear it in relation to friends who might be managers, and they are bringing their team to account- like accountability. And all of a sudden they're getting a bullying claim because they're asking their people to their team to actually perform in their job. Yeah. And then all of a sudden there's a bullying claim.

Franca Sala Tenna: 15:06

Common complaint.

Sonia Nolan: 15:07

There just seems to be a misstep somewhere here, so can you walk me through that?

Franca Sala Tenna: 15:11

So the definition of bullying, bullying comes under our safety space. So it's perceived to be an unsafe work practice. And the definition is there's got to be repeated behaviour. So they're looking for a pattern. And that behaviour is got to be unreasonable. And because of that unreasonable, repeated behaviour, it leads to a risk of harm to the person. So it's health and safety. And that harm can be physical, but more often these days is psychological harm. So that's our definition of bullying. And it's interesting that you raised the example of bullying intersecting with performance management, right? Because that is a very common intersection. And I see it happen all the time. And in some organisations, I see, even an apprehensive nurse or an unwillingness to performance manage someone, because of the risk of someone making a bullying claim. And here's what I say to people around that space, can't stop someone from making a bullying claim, just like you can't stop someone from making an unfair dismissal claim, what you can do is protect yourself. Right? And so the ways that people, managers who performance manage someone can protect themselves a few things I would say, and the first is, make sure you've got the evidence that they're underperforming. So don't keep it subjective. Go factual, objective. So whether you're looking for external standards that demonstrate what's expected, or you have multiple people in your team that are doing the same job, and so you can actually see what someone is doing. So have your evidence. The second thing is, make sure you got a process to follow in performance managing someone, so I always talk about "let your process be your friend," follow your process. And part of following your process is documenting it. So keeping track of all of those conversations that you've had with someone and what you said and expectations. And then the last thing is about how you deliver all of that. Right? So you could do one and two really well, but you could be demeaning or condescending or angry or, and, and just the delivery of that message could result in a potentially successful bullying claim. So that's the kind of things I work with managers, we we run a whole workshop on how do you manage someone's substandard performance? And that's some of the things that I would talk with them about. Yeah,

Sonia Nolan: 17:38

great advice, Franco. Great advice. And then the third element you mentioned earlier was discrimination. So can you give me a definition of discrimination and what you're seeing in the workplace.

Franca Sala Tenna: 17:51

So I'm feeling a little bit like discrimination is the poor cousin of sexual harassment and bullying, because those two are getting so much attention, right. And probably the only area of discrimination that still is getting attention is around gender discrimination. And again, my best guess is because it's kind of been scooped up in the wave of how women have been treated for so long. And in that same space around sexual harassment, although it's very different, but that's where it's been scooped up. So discrimination is where somebody is treated less favourably than another person in the same or similar circumstances, because of a range of what we call protected categories. So some of the most common ones that we're aware of would be gender, age, race, disability, pregnancy, family responsibility, sexual orientation, political or religious conviction, there's a whole lot more other categories, but the gist of it is that you're treating someone less favourably because they have that attribute. And if they didn't have that attribute, you wouldn't have said or done what you did do. And so that's what discrimination is.

Sonia Nolan: 19:04

And are there any patterns that you're thinking? And I don't know whether you can talk about them? But is, is there a pattern that you're seeing in regards to the gender based discrimination particularly, or the sexual harassment? Is there a pattern with younger women coming into the workplace now? Like, are we seeing more of that, but we've still got some old thinking in the managerial level in, in some managers, I don't know, is there- is there a pattern anywhere in what you're seeing?

Franca Sala Tenna: 19:35

Not enough for me to comment on from a statistical level? I think I'm hearing anecdotally some great stories about people who are now speaking up. So perhaps for me, it's more about and we talk about this concept of how can you shift from being a passive bystander to an active upstander and so I am starting to hear some really encouraging stories about people who calling out behaviours and who are supporting people and who are reporting it. And where I have the great privilege of going back. And so some of my clients I've had for more than 10 years, so where I have the great privilege of going back and talking with them, and people who, particularly managers who have done our training for managers about how to skill them up to identify and manage an unlawful behaviour. And just this week, I was in the room with a lovely guy who said, you know, "that training really made a difference for me, and for me to notice things more and to pick them up earlier." And he said, "and I sent my EA on that same manager course. And what I now see is that together, so she's noticing things that maybe I haven't seen and now she's raising it with me and saying,"Hey, that's could be an issue, we need to have a look at this."" And so for me, that's always so encouraging, isn't it?

Sonia Nolan: 21:01

What a great change.

Franca Sala Tenna: 21:02

Yeah, it's just so encouraging. And while I was in the room, running that workshop, and I, I kind of did a shout out to this particular guy and said, "Hey, here's how he has used it, he sent his EA as well. And here's what they are doing now." Someone else in the workshop said, "Oh, that's just made me put down an action, where I'm going to make sure my new EA comes to your next course." Because I want her to be doing the same thing with me. And, and so I love it when I hear these stories of change. Because every time I hear a story of that that makes me say,"Oh, okay, someone who could have suffered harm maybe hasn't because of- or maybe if they did, it was picked up early. And that means it hasn't got bigger and messier." And, and so for me, it's all about lives. It's all about lives being transformed, lives being protected. Yes, of course I love those stories.

Sonia Nolan: 21:50

Of course you would. And of course it also takes you one step closer to retirement.

Franca Sala Tenna: 21:54

That's right. That's right, I've got my 10

Sonia Nolan: 21:57

What we haven't actually touched on Franca is year plan. the way that you deliver this training because, people might be listening and you know, thinking, "Oh, I'm gonna listen to My Warm Table, because I love My Warm Table." Thank you for doing that. However, you're probably thinking, gosh, you know, EEO stuff, you know, sexual harassment, bullying, discrimination, it's all a bit dry. Do I really want to go to one of those training courses? Because I know I probably need to in my workplace, but oh, you know, I I'd rather stick a fork in my eye or something equally entertaining.

Franca Sala Tenna: 22:30

Yeah, you know. Thanks for that, Sonia.

Sonia Nolan: 22:32

So, no, where I'm going with that Franca is that you do it differently. You don't make people stick forks in their eyes.

Franca Sala Tenna: 22:37

I don't, I don't, they do, though, come into the room thinking that it's probably about that. And interesting that you say that, because this week, this week we were doing, I was doing a delivery with a new client. And so I always love the new clients, because they come in with that attitude that you've just said, right? So they're like, how long is this workshop for? What are we going to be doing? And so they get into the room and this was a group of managers so but we were, we were running a half day workshop around unlawful behaviours for a group of managers who probably thought I know this stuff, I don't need to be here, I can probably skip it. Now, I have the great pleasure and fun of working with teams of actors and facilitators from the experience lab. They are an amazing bunch of people big shout out to the

Sonia Nolan: 23:28

People get really engaged, don't they? experience lab, amazing bunch of people who make learning engaging and interesting. And so way back in 2013, we wrote our first theatre experience, about"Much Ado About Hector", and Hector turned out to be quite a nasty piece of work, quite a bully. And so since then, we've continued to have this gorgeous partnership. And we've written I was trying to think five, six, maybe seven different plays and delivered it to more than 25,000 people now all over, mostly WA, every now and again, we get flown east coast, but mostly WA we run the training, and we make it engaging and interesting and fun. And my job is the facilitator, my team of facilitators. Our job is to interact with the audience, the participants interact with the characters and and we let the characters go off script. So we'll let the audience ask them questions live. I mean, I've had Hector, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to swear on this podcast. I better be careful. But I've had Hector been caught everything from psychopath right through to a not very nice person with a whole lot of colourful language right so he-

Franca Sala Tenna: 24:41

They get completely.

Sonia Nolan: 24:43

As in the audience in there.

Franca Sala Tenna: 24:45

My goodness. Yeah. You know, I still remember this training we did. Last year. It was a construction company. 40 men in the room about five women. It was a Friday afternoon on top of a pub. They had rented the room on top of a pub so, I

Sonia Nolan: 24:59

Wrong emotion. thought, this is gonna be interesting to see how we keep their attention. And sure enough, and it's this wasn't Hector, it was one of our other characters, Larry. Larry sexually harasses. That's right. So Larry says a whole lot of inappropriate things. And in the middle of this workshop this very big. He looked like a big bikie dude, he had a goatee beard and whatever. And he looks out there and he's mad. And he says to him, "do you have a daughter?" And Larry stays in character for the whole time. And Larry goes, "yep". And the guy said, "Well, how would you feel if I did that behaviour to your daughter?" And Larry says,"well, she's three, so it'd be a bit weird." And then the bikie guy said he wasn't bikie. But the guy says to Larry, "well, I've got two daughters who are 20 and 21. and if you f-ing did that to my daughters, I'd f-ing knock your block off." And then, and then around him, the mate- his mates start to rally. So they start to go, "yeah, yeah, yeah" and then I do this little Muppet dance in front of Larry to protect him. And go, okay, so. So yes, people are-

Franca Sala Tenna: 26:12

I've had him being threatened with harm. I've had him told he's going to be imprisoned, I've had him wanting to be tasered, mate, you name it. Because we create stories that create an emotional response. And then our job, that's right, is to then go is to kind of get those beautiful moments where everyone in the room is just you could hear a pin drop. And you can just kind of put something in their consciousness to think about what's this, like in your workplace? And, you know, when you see it, what do you actually do about it and all of that kind of stuff. So, so yep, we have a great time, all in the name of learning, but one of our values is around being playful. So we really believe that we can deliver content that also allows for this space of some playfulness.

Sonia Nolan: 26:59

Yeah. And look, I've had the privilege of working with you, Franca, but also coming along and seeing a couple of these plays and the content, its content dense and content rich.

Franca Sala Tenna: 27:11

I think that's the lawyer in me. Can't help myself.

Sonia Nolan: 27:14

So yeah, and that's good. But yes, while it's content rich and quite dense it is... It doesn't feel that way. Because you're on that journey through the characters. And I guess that's the other thing that makes you feel you can separate the behaviour from the people watching rather than, you know, a whiteboard and death by PowerPoint. You know, this is what you You, you, you, you must do, it is hey, look at this extreme behaviour on stage. Does any of that resonate with you? How do you feel about it? What are you going to do about it?

Franca Sala Tenna: 27:47

And they can tell the character off without feeling like they've been told. And we know that that's actually a critical component to get behavioural change, statistically, we know particularly around sexual harassment, that it is male to female, right? We know that. And yet, if you're a male in the room, who doesn't think you've done it, or doesn't have a clear understanding of the definition of sexual harassment, and you think it's "touched the bits and show someone's bits," right, and you haven't done those things, then to point the finger at them isn't actually going to result in behavioural change. So what we know is if we can take them on a journey of identifying the behaviour, and then learning how to call it out and be an active upstander, we're actually going to get a better result in workplaces than if we just point the finger and so well, 85% of you have probably sexually harassed someone in your work life, you know, that's, that's, that's not gonna work.

Sonia Nolan: 28:50

That collaboration you have with the experience lab is just gold. And you've been doing it for so long. It's almost like, you know, this is the moment in time now that you've been, you know, doing this - not necessarily a long apprenticeship for because it's been significantly important. But now that we're in this moment of time, where the legislation has changed, as you said, so significantly in the last, you know, 18 months, you're absolutely ready to rock and roll with something that's been tried, tested and made a difference already.

Franca Sala Tenna: 29:21

That lovely exponential curve, right. That's where we are. I don't know how high it's gonna go. But it is- we are skyrocketing at the moment.

Sonia Nolan: 29:31

Which is wonderful. And it's nice that people are investing time to actually want to understand it. And one of the things that people have to understand is just how the Safety Act has changed. In regards to Occupational Health and Safety used to be oh a trip hazard or, you know, tie that rope down to do something that someone's not going to get physically harmed. But now the definition has changed as a result of the Respect at Work Act?

Franca Sala Tenna: 29:58

Well, what happened was - actually mostly before the Respect at Work. So in WA, after, after WA taking a very long time to update their safety legislation. Apart from Victoria, who still haven't done

Sonia Nolan: 30:11

Were we lagging behind the rest of the states? it. 2011, the rest of Australia did something called harmonisation of safety laws. And the whole idea behind that Right. So they're not just HR issues. They are was where you acknowledged that there were companies that worked in different jurisdictions in Australia, it was really difficult for them to kind of meet their safety requirements, because every state and territory had a different version or different whatever. And so the Australian government worked on this harmonisation everybody came on board apart from Victoria and WA. So on February/March last year WA finally did and so not just a name change from OSH, Occupational Safety and Health, but to WHS Work Health and Safety Act. But for me in the space that I work around people and behaviours, they introduced three new codes of practices. And when I tell people about these, they actually turn a bit pale, because they're not, they actually are really onerous. And so the first code of practice workplace behaviours, so that covers bullying and violence and aggression. But in that code, they created two new behaviours. So unresolved conflict, and misconduct, but also in that code, they said, "Actually, sexual harassment is a safety issue. Discrimination is a safety issue. Victimisation is a safety issue." And so behaviours that had previously been just the domain of our equal opportunity laws, now have also come over into the safety space as well. safety issues.

Franca Sala Tenna: 31:49

And it's interesting, because when I go in workplaces, and this is a very live issue at the moment, when I go into workplaces, who have a very strong safety culture, then they've got really clear protocols about completing incident reports and the whole process they follow. And now they're asking me, "so do we complete an incident report for bullying? Or do we give it to HR and they manage it?" Right? And it's actually a really-

Sonia Nolan: 32:18

Good question.

Franca Sala Tenna: 32:19

It's a really good question. So this week, someone asked me, I went, "Yeah, good question." Right? And I don't have all the answers to all of these things. I think we need more clarity. If that code is going to say, all of these behaviours are now covered by safety, then are they also going to be saying, so we want you to complete an incident report? Or is it more however you deal with it - so whether you go through HR and conduct an investigation, or it goes through safety, and you launch it as an incident report - is it more that they want to know that you've done all that's reasonably practicable, to have eliminated that risk? Right now, at the moment, that's my view, we'll wait and see, you know, as it as it continues to unfold, but so like, yeah, big changes, not just in our equal opportunity laws, but in our safety laws. And then the third big change I'm seeing is in the courts. So the judgments that are now reading, even for behaviours, like sexual harassment, where that legal definition has not changed for years, the way charges are now interpreting that legal definition is way more onerous, to the alleged perpetrator or respondent, way more favourable to the complaintant, the alleged victim. So that's interesting for me as well, just seeing the nuances of even when the law hasn't changed, the interpretation of it is now changing. And I just recently I read a judgement where a deputy commissioner of the Fair Work said to this particular perpetrator you should know better and should know better in this climate, in this environment. With everything that's been happening, you should have known better. Right? And so, lots of changes, lots of changes from you know, where I'm sitting.

Sonia Nolan: 34:18

One of the other changes in workplace behaviour has been that once upon a time, back in the day, and I think we're all old enough to know when back in the day was. It was you know, sexual harassment was about workplace work time. Nine to five when you're just you know, behave yourselves and the manager had to sort it out if it was an issue. And then as time moved on, it became to workplace connection. So that's why we're always getting those emails before the Christmas-

Franca Sala Tenna: 34:51

Staff Christmas!

Sonia Nolan: 34:52

And I was actually thinking why do you have to keep telling me that you're not allowed to drink and make- behave yourself. Remember this is a work function. You continuely get bombarded with emails leading up to and it's only now the pennies dropping its because of the sexual - the owners on the...

Franca Sala Tenna: 35:08

I tell you staff Christmas parties they have got to be the biggest nightmare for HR people. I've always said HR's needs two Christmas parties. One is the all staff one where they adjust on duty and high alert for the whole night. And then the other one is when they can go out without everybody else and actually unwind.

Sonia Nolan: 35:30

For deep breaths.

Franca Sala Tenna: 35:31

Yeah, that's right.

Sonia Nolan: 35:32

And of course, workplace connection also extends to okay, you're going to a conference or, you know, a work trip. Anything thats because your there because of work.

Franca Sala Tenna: 35:41

That's right. That's a really good description. That's exactly right. Yeah.

Sonia Nolan: 35:45

And now there's even more owners on the employee impact. That one blows my mind.

Franca Sala Tenna: 35:52

Yeah, me too. And so the concept of workplace impact is something could happen outside of the workplace that has no workplace connection. So a couple of mates having a drink in a pub on Saturday night, both of them eye off the same girl, and they end up in fisticuffs over it. And then if that behaviour then starts to have a negative impact back in the workplace...

Sonia Nolan: 36:15

Because they're work colleagues?

Franca Sala Tenna: 36:16

Yes, that's right. Because their work colleagues as well. Yep. And so-

Sonia Nolan: 36:20

And the managers got to do something about that.

Franca Sala Tenna: 36:22

Yeah, that's right. So because we go back to safety, they've got a responsibility to do all that's

Sonia Nolan: 36:25

The other part of that is helping people have those courageous communications and complete conversations, reasonably practicable, to eliminate or minimise hazards and risks, right. And so if the change in interactions between because I'm just, I'm just putting my mind back to "Oh, my those two people because of something that happened outside is now causing a risk to health and safety inside, then yes. And so, again, what I'm noticing is, courts are placing greater responsibilities on employers, and are willing to hold them to account in broader spaces than historically what they would have. gosh, two employees have had fisticuffs over something that happened in a pub. And now it's my problem. I'm going to have a conversation I never signed up for as a manager."

Franca Sala Tenna: 37:23

No. No!

Sonia Nolan: 37:23

That is not in my JDF, right?. So. So having that ability to have those hard conversations is a whole new skill for some managers. Right?

Franca Sala Tenna: 37:34

Absolutely.

Sonia Nolan: 37:35

So walk me through some of that. And also, I want us to dive into where you saw gaps in that management training.

Franca Sala Tenna: 37:44

So because I am a lawyer, I do come at it from a legal space. But actually, when I did my law degree, I did a double degree in law and psychology. And I fell in love with psychology, and halfway through my law degree, so I did this double degree, and back then it was a new thing. And halfway through my law degree, I thought, I don't want to be a lawyer, I want to work in psychology. And so I tried to leave the law, I tried to leave the degree. And they had very cleverly set it up at the time, that if because they were kind of cross crediting to each other. And so if I stopped the double degree, I got nothing. Like halfway through, I would have gotten nothing, I wouldn't have got my undergrad in psychology, and the law would have been wasted. And so I remember this critical moment. So it was a six year degree. And for various reasons, I took seven years to do it. And so I remember halfway through the degree, feeling a bit like Macbeth, and I'd studied Macbeth at high school.

Sonia Nolan: 38:48

He's dramatic.

Franca Sala Tenna: 38:49

He is dramatic, and Macbeth had murdered a few people. And somewhere in the midst of murdering a few people he had said, and this was justification for him to keep on murdering people. He said something like"I've waited so far into the blood, that to go back is just as hard as going forward" and he kept on murdering people. Now like to be clear, I haven't murdered anybody.

Sonia Nolan: 39:10

I was going to say, is this a close contrast?

Franca Sala Tenna: 39:11

No, that's right, I was going to say, I haven't murdered anybody. But doing a law degree felt very, very torturous, right. And so I made this, I remember this critical moment where I thought, you're in the blood, Franca. Whether you go back or you go forward, actually, neither option is going to be easy. So keep on going forward, because you actually will end up with two degrees at the end of it. So I went forward, finished my two degrees. And I think then I really actually felt like I was a wannabe psychologist. Right. So that's why I ended up in criminal law, Legal Aid representative. I was always fascinated by why people do the things that they do.

Sonia Nolan: 39:49

And that comes through really clearly in the way that you're framing all of your plays. How you frame your imitation as well. It's really getting into people's mindset about how they can be a better version of themselves.

Franca Sala Tenna: 40:01

Yeah that's right. Yeah. So I ended up doing a postgraduate studies in something called Ontological Coaching. So that's a whole other thing. I also did a post grad in education. And so I feel like now I have somehow managed to weave the law, and how people treat each other and interact and try and understand them into our training. So yes, I still come from a legal perspective. But I'm completely fascinated about how, through our verbal and nonverbal communication, we actually can really impact the way that we come across. And by becoming more aware of ourselves, because primarily, we only get to change ourselves. So by becoming more aware of ourselves, how can we change how we show up in order to influence the people that were involved in? And so I spent a lot of time working with managers, helping them to see themselves differently, and giving them some new skills and techniques to navigate some of those difficult conversations. And also to just make sense of why am I finding it so difficult? And what - what is that about?

Sonia Nolan: 41:15

So interesting, Franca, and can you tell me a little bit more about ontology? Because that is, you know, that is the magic that you're weaving? It is how you're, you're working with the managers, so describe it, give us a definition? What is your definition of Ontology for

Franca Sala Tenna: 41:28

That's alright. I didn't understand it. people who don't understand it. Before I studied it, I was like could have not found a simpler name to name the course. Right? But no, he went with this. So ontology is the study of"being", so ontological, an ontological coach, and the training that we did, looks at it from saying, as human beings, we show up in three interrelated

Sonia Nolan: 41:46

Confronting. domains. So we show up in our language, and which is obviously the most obvious and common and we get that right - words are powerful, but not just in our external language. So when I talk with you like today, but also in our internal language,

Franca Sala Tenna: 42:05

Yeah, I've got lots of very honest friends. so the conversation that I have going on in my head right about now, and the one that you have going on in your head, and, and all of those conversations that still impact the outcomes that we do or don't do, but we just- we hear them, nobody else hears them. So we show up in our language. But we also show up in our mood and emotions. And again, I feel like, a bit like discrimination with bullying and sexual harassment, mood and emotions are very much a poor cousin to language. And, and really, actually, in fact, how many times have we been told to leave your emotions at the door, and all of that kind of stuff, and come to work and put on that professional face? And yet, our mood and emotions are predicated to our actions. So if we don't start to understand, what is the message that this mood or emotion is teaching us, then we're going to just keep on living in small patterns. So that's the second area and the third area is our physiology. So our physiology is what we show other people, so how we hold our body and all of those nonverbal gestures, but our physiology is also internal. So it's those neurotransmitters like cortisol and oxytocin and serotonin, what are they doing to us? And how are they affecting our mood and emotions, which then affect what comes out of our mouth and our behaviours and our actions? And so the role of an ontological coach in its purest sense, is to be an observer of the person I'm used to it, right. And she said, "I'm surprised that you you're coaching in those three inter related domains, and in observing, it's about reflecting back to that person, what we're noticing, and, and asking open ended curious questions from their perspective about what's relevant, what's useful, what would do a course for which that's the opposite of what it can they see, what are they feeling right now, I noticed you is." And so I remember her saying that and I thought that held your body this way, what was that about? And so, so what was quite a valid - as a lawyer, often I would be brought in to I've done is woven all of those beautiful frameworks and skills and techniques I learned in my post grad with the legal mind, and, and the legal mind. And I remember when I started my postcode, a girlfriend of mine said to me, so she knew about this course. And she said, "I'm surprised that you're doing it." And I said, "Oh, why?" And she said, "Well, you are someone that just likes to tell people what to do." give legal advice. What is legal advice? You're telling people what to do? Cool, right. And so that was a very valid comment. And what Ontological Coaching has done for me, maybe it's shaved a few of those, those more abrupt edges off me, and allowed me to not have to have the answers. And to, I'm definitely way more curious than I used to be definitely way more non judgmental, I use the word on a daily basis, I wonder what might be happening there. Instead of telling someone, well, you know what that's about, it's about blah, blah, blah, I spend a lot of time wondering.

Sonia Nolan: 45:38

Wondering.

Franca Sala Tenna: 45:38

It's been a great skill as a mother of teenage boys as well, right? And I learned more about myself in that 18 months of doing that post grad, than I probably had learned in the previous 45 years, or probably a bit longer than that, right? And so, and that's the whole thing about Ontological Coaching, if you don't apply it to yourself, first, you will not function well as an ontological coach. But if you do, embrace it, and look at it, and sit in the discomfort of it at times, as you look at yourself, then that allows you to also offer it as a gift to somebody else.

Sonia Nolan: 46:23

What a gift. And I'm sitting here sort of thinking, okay, how am I sitting? You could do a complete and utter analysis of this whole conversation, Franca, we'll unpack that later. So in summation, I'm going to use a legal term, is that a legal term, in summation?

Franca Sala Tenna: 46:38

Yeah, sure.

Sonia Nolan: 46:39

Great. What are three things you would like My Warm Table listeners to take away from our conversation today? You know, if they were going back into their workplace, or even from an ontological point of view? What three things should we get curious about?

Franca Sala Tenna: 46:54

Wow, gee, that's a good question. My starting point, around people and behaviours, particularly when I talk about maybe lower level behaviours, right? Is good people get it wrong. So for me, that means when someone says or does something that I don't think is okay, I will start from a space of good people get it wrong, and have a curious - if it's important to me what they said or did, so I actually need to sort it out, then I will have a curious conversation with them. And there's a script that we teach people, and it's a really simple, "hey, I noticed that you said," and then I describe what they said without making it emotional. "I'm just wondering what was happening for you, or what made you say that?" So that is a script that I use all the time in my life. And that would be one lovely takeaway, good people get it wrong, be curious, non judgmental, and a word that we don't use so much these days is show people grace. Right?

Sonia Nolan: 48:02

I love that word. Yeah.

Franca Sala Tenna: 48:05

Because good people get it wrong. And I do feel like oh, my goodness, we are definitely in a heightened PC World, where anybody who says anything that sounds a little bit not okay, can be hammered over it. And I would like to show people a bit more grace with good people getting it wrong. And I'm not talking about repeat offenders. I'm not talking about the person that's now this is the fourth or fifth time, I'm talking about at that low level. So that would definitely be takeaway for me. For everybody in workplaces. I want them to hear the laws have changed. They have changed significantly, but also, the courts interpretation of some of the same laws has also changed. And be aware. Be aware, be aware, right? Because they've changed and I am seeing workplaces, employers who are really wanting to hold people to account, being way more onerous, and disciplinary in some of their actions. And I would hate for a good person to end up losing their job because of their lack of awareness. And because I don't know they've been sleeping under a rock for the last two years. And it hasn't, they haven't realised that the laws have changed. So that would definitely be a takeaway, as well. Maybe that's my two takeaways.

Sonia Nolan: 49:38

Well, I wonder if I can add a third. Actually a curious question. Can we still laugh in the workplace? Can we still have a good time and have a joke and banter with like, where - we want to go to work and have a bit of fun and have those relationships with our colleagues, where we can have a bit of fun. So can we not laugh?

Franca Sala Tenna: 49:59

Good question. And sometimes when I run the training, I get people who are really not happy about how things have changed. And they will throw that at me. They'll say, "Well, I'm not going to talk to anybody then, I'll just, you know, just be quiet." And I was like, "that's not what I'm saying, if that's what you're taking away, you're missing the essence of what I'm saying. The essence of what I'm saying is there are some things that are unlawful, be aware of what they are, and don't make jokes about them. But there's a whole lot of stuff, which is perfectly fine." And I, I like to make the distinction between laughing at someone versus laughing with someone. Too often, humour in the past has been at the expense of somebody else. And to which I would say, that is not humour, if you are putting someone else down in order to get a laugh. But if you're laughing with somebody, right, and often I will make jokes about myself as a lawyer, then that is very different. And so yes, laugh. I've worked with people and we laugh all the time. I run workshops and we laugh a lot in those workshops. Laughter is good for you. Be mindful about what you're making a joke about. Don't make a joke about anything that's unlawful.

Sonia Nolan: 51:19

Franca, thank you so much for your time this morning. You are a font of information, and I just love what you're bringing in this space, which is so necessary. And I look forward to maybe having a pina colada with you in 10 years looking at how bored we are.

Franca Sala Tenna: 51:39

Yes, that would be lovely. Hear hear to that. Thanks so much, Sonia. I really appreciate this conversation.

Sonia Nolan: 51:46

Thank you, Franca. Thanks for joining me, Sonia Nolan around the Warm Table. Let's grow the community. Please follow My Warm Table podcast on socials and like and share this episode with your family and friends. My Warm Table is brought to you by Females Over 45 Fitness. Keep listening now for a health tip from FOFF head coach Kelli Reilly.

Kelli Reilly FOFF: 52:08

Hi, it's Kelli Reilly. founder and head coach of Females Over 45 Fitness or FOFF. Did you know that during menopause, we can experience hot flushes, night sweats, anxiety and depression which can lead to trouble sleeping. Lack of sleep can worsen these symptoms and really impact on our physical and mental health. To keep a good sleep routine, reduce your caffeine intake and create a great restful bedroom. Remember ladies, it's your time to shine.