Eating Disorders and Mental Health Strategies with Nicola Cooper

What if understanding the intricate relationship between mental and physical health could be the key to holistic well-being? Join us at My Warm Table as we chat with Nicola Cooper, a highly experienced mental health nurse and therapist with a rich background in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) from the UK. Nicola shares her compelling journey and deep insights into the complexities of mental health, focusing on pressing issues like eating disorders, emotional regulation, and the repercussions of the COVID-19 pandemic on mental health. Through Nicola's expert lens, we explore how integrating holistic care can transform lives and foster genuine healing.

In our warm table conversation, Nicola delves into strategies for managing digital consumption, particularly concerning harmful online content related to eating disorders; and she brings to light the critical need for trauma-informed care. We also explore the nuanced balance between medication, therapy, and personalized treatment plans with Nicola.

Join us!

Warm thanks to:
Sponsor: Females Over Forty-five Fitness in Victoria Park
Sound Engineering: Damon Sutton
Music: William A Spence
... and all our generous and inspiring guests around the warm table this season!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

for me personally, I hold the hope from the beginning, like to me, like I've worked in so many places, in so many different areas and with you know, clients that have had multiple admissions and are labeled that complex client and feel like they're never going to get better or they feel like they've tried a lot of things. So I personally hold the hope from the beginning for the client. Whether they see it or not, or whether we talk about that from the beginning or not, I always hold that hope for them.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Thanks for joining me, sonia Nolan, around the warm table, or the double a calda as my Italian papa used to call a welcoming table of acceptance, positivity and curiosity. My Warm Table podcast aims to create that and more, as we amplify stories of Western Australians making our communities better. My Warm Table Season 3 is proud to be sponsored by Females Over 45 Fitness, with a studio in Victoria Park and also online all over Australia. So now please take a seat and join us for Season 3 as we explore stories of hope.

Speaker 2: 1:17

Mental health is a growing concern in our community. Mental disorders affect two in five people in Australia, so it's very likely that you or someone you know will have experienced challenges with mental health. Around the warm table today, I'm delighted to welcome Nicola Cooper, a credentialed mental health nurse and nurse therapist who's been working in the field for 10 years, guiding clients towards hope and healing in their mental health journeys. Nicola trained in the UK and holds mental health nursing and postgraduate mental health qualifications. Her work in the area of eating disorders came with a huge flourish of recommendation to me from a warm table listener who believes Nicola is among the best in her field and we are so lucky to have her here in WA.

Speaker 2: 2:05

Nicola predominantly works with adolescents and adults. Her special interests are working with people who experience eating disorders such as anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa, binge eating disorder and body image concerns. She also works with people experiencing perinatal mental health concerns and personality disorders and emotional dysregulation. She's experienced in working with clients who have low mood, depression, anxiety, stress, low self-esteem and perfectionism. I look forward to understanding these issues and more as we chat with Nicola around the warm table today. Join us, nicola. Thank you so much for joining me around the warm table. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's going to be a really important conversation I think we're going to have today, because we're talking about mental health and you are a mental health nurse and also a nurse therapist, so let's start by understanding exactly what a nurse therapist is that's a really good question.

Speaker 1: 3:08

Um, well, I suppose for me, because I trained in the uk, um, my degree is in mental health nursing, so from the beginning we, um I'll talk, talk, therapeutic techniques, we do clinical supervision, um all of those things that you expect when you're a mental health clinician. So it's been hard to explain in Australia because the training is very different. So how I think about it is it's a bit similar to like a social work therapist or an occupational therapist doing therapy, not just the elements of their discipline, if that makes sense. So, yeah, to me it means that I have done that mental health training.

Speaker 1: 3:55

So cognitive behavioral therapy was embedded into our training, and what I mean by that is that it was a therapy that we were taught about from the beginning, and that means a therapy that looks at people's.

Speaker 1: 4:10

In basic terms, it looks at people's thoughts, feelings and behaviours, tracking those, thinking about those, what are the links, what are the patterns, and then how we maybe change some of those patterns, depending on whether it's focusing on the thoughts, and then that changes the way people feel and then behave, and then vice versa.

Speaker 1: 4:32

It looks like doing behavioral experiments, um, thinking about emotions and what comes up for people and what are the triggers for those and how it intersects with the other two, and I just had a real passion for holistic care. So I feel like, from my nursing perspective, I have that understanding of physical health issues and how that might impact mental health and how mental health might impact physical health as well, and then also keen to work with people therapeutically through those issues and try and give them strategies to cope better, to make improvements to their lives. And at the point where they're willing to do that, and I feel like, from a nursing perspective again, like there's many points that we can often have contact with clients and different ways of building that therapeutic rapport and that relationship with them and the trust that you really need to be able to do therapy therapeutic rapport and that relationship with them and the trust that you really need to be able to do therapy so with your training.

Speaker 2: 5:28

tell me about the area that you specifically focus in on with your mental health practice.

Speaker 1: 5:33

So currently a lot of my work is with people with eating disorders and people with emotional regulation issues and I would say probably depression and anxiety and some of the things that go along with those diagnoses.

Speaker 2: 5:53

Yeah, and what about then the mental health as it's changed over the last, I guess, 10 years or so that you've been in this space? How have you seen, or have you seen, a difference in the way mental health is talked about or mental health issues? Presenting what's been your experience?

Speaker 1: 6:13

I think overall, I think awareness is always increasing. I think we're always talking about more things. I just I sometimes wonder how those things come up or when they come up, because it seems to be. We're a bit, I think, as humans in nature we're a bit reactive, so when there seems to be a lot of something, then everybody's talking about it and then it drops off again and then. But I think generally it's being more talked about. I think during COVID Covid, I think everybody experienced a lot more mental health stress than we'd ever experienced before and I think that's seen a lot of increase in presentations. There's been a lot more demand and I think it's really tested people's ability to cope. Um, and specifically in the area that I work it's there work we've noticed a significant increase in people presenting with eating disorders. I don't have the exact statistics for that and I think in general there was just noted that there was more drug and alcohol presentations and there was more youth presentations of people that were struggling over that time.

Speaker 2: 7:22

Do we still have that COVID lag Like? Are we still suffering from the effects of COVID now, or do you think we've sort of come over that hump and we're in a new phase?

Speaker 1: 7:34

I don't know that we've fully come over it now, because I think the way like the eating disorder presentations definitely obviously that's what I'm more involved with, but it doesn't seem to be like reducing, um, and I think some of that is definitely COVID. But I think, as well you know, there's lots of theories about why that might be increasing in general, with younger people having access to social media and all of those kind of things, and I think maybe, um, yeah, but I think young people in general, like youth presentations, and mental health has gone up. What's your?

Speaker 2: 8:11

theory or hypothesis in that um, I think there's a.

Speaker 1: 8:18

I'm probably going to sound really old when I say you're in good company but I just think there's different pressures on young people today.

Speaker 1: 8:26

I think they have so much access to so much information that we didn't have not having the internet when we were growing up. Um, I don't think. I think if you were bullied at school when you were at school, when you got home, at least there was reprieve. I don't think there's that for young people. Um, and people, yeah, just not getting any break from any of the pressure, you know, if they're looking on their phone and they're feeling bad about themselves, and then there's a million adverts that are targeted at people to make them feel worse about themselves, and it's just, it's a bit of a vicious cycle, I think.

Speaker 2: 9:04

Yeah, so do you recommend digital detox for people? Is that something that you were an advocate for?

Speaker 1: 9:12

I'm more of an advocate, I think, for reporting offensive things. So, obviously, doing a lot of the work that I do personally, like when I've been to trainings and talked to people and actually just examined some of my own stuff, like my own Instagram reel and what does that look like and you know, just like I don't know if everybody gets this or maybe it was just on my phone, but, um, I was getting a lot of. You know, summer bodies are made in winter. Um, do this 12 week juice diet or whatever it is like it's. I feel like it's pushed on us, so much.

Speaker 2: 9:50

It's so cleverly targeted through their advertising strategies and the algorithms, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 9:55

yeah, yeah so I just made more of a conscious effort just to report it to instagrammers irrelevant or offensive and not wanting to see it.

Speaker 2: 10:05

Yeah, because you can go into that three little dots or whatever in every reel or on all social media and actually report things or say you want to see less of, and so being really active in that space is good for our mental health.

Speaker 1: 10:18

Yeah, and I think, just as a community, if people are doing that more and we're questioning why we're seeing these things. I think that's what I talk to young people about If they're caught up in looking at those things or getting caught up in the messages, really trying to drill down what is that person wanting in that advert? And a lot of the time it's your money, like it's not about your mental health. No, it's a transaction, isn't it? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 10:44

Yeah, and money, like. It's not about your mental health, no, it's a transaction, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, and it's very similar to sitting on your email and unsubscribing to everything that you don't need to be getting through your email as well.

Speaker 1: 10:51

So it is, it's actually being um very proactive in what is presented to you yeah, yeah and like obviously tiktok is a is a big platform with young people, but you can do similar things on tiktok as well, to say that you don't want to see stuff or it's irrelevant, and I think it's more educating people about why they're stuck in that or why they're getting caught down a rabbit hole, rather than trying to detox from it, if that makes sense yeah, I guess it's a more, um, proactive and realistic approach, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 11:24

because, fine, you can come off it for a more proactive and realistic approach, isn't it? Because, fine, you can come off it for a little while, but then you're back on it and you're presented with the same things, whereas if you change the landscape, it's more powerful. Yeah, great advice, particularly, and the key focus of your mental health training and your key focus in your mental health work is in eating disorders. Yeah, so there are a wide range of eating disorders, though, aren't there? So it's not just. I mean, what comes to mind immediately for me is anorexia nervosa. That's, I guess, the one that maybe gets the most publicity, and maybe people have been touched by that in some way with a family member or friend. But there are other eating disorders too, aren't there?

Speaker 1: 12:09

Yeah, and I think you're not alone there. I think when people think of eating disorders, they typically think of anorexia, but yeah, there's bulimia nervosa as well and binge eating disorder, and binge eating disorder is actually probably one of the most prominent ones. How does that present? So binge eating disorder is somebody that has periods of sorry episodes of binge eating. So that happens several times a week and then they experience significant guilt around that after and shame. Then they experience significant guilt around that after and shame, um, and then will maybe try, and they often. There's often strict rules that they try to follow so that mentality of I'll be better tomorrow and then they might try and restrict because they've binged eat the night before and then obviously then they're hungry and then that drives the binging behavior.

Speaker 2: 13:06

It's really complex, isn't it? Because you know, I think that we have, because of popular culture, we have a really poor relationship with what healthy eating actually looks like. Yeah, is that a fair assumption? Fair thing to say.

Speaker 1: 13:23

I think so definitely, and I think in this space as well, and in the eating disorder space, we see so many, I see so many families and so many young people and adults with very strict views about what is healthy and what isn't healthy, and what we should be eating and what we should be avoiding, and I think all of the mixed messages really plays out in the people that you see and, depending on what they've been exposed to or what they've tried or what their family's view of that is, yeah, it's even very different for the families that we see.

Speaker 2: 13:58

Yeah, I can imagine, because you know we're just surrounded by so many you know sort of dietitian experts on social media and friends and everyone in some sort of diet phase or craze. It just seems this constant you should be keto, you should be paleo, you should be eating more protein, you should be no carbs. There's so much that's been thrown at us and yet moderation is very rarely talked about.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Everything in moderation.

Speaker 2: 14:27

Yeah, definitely yeah. So with your work in the eating disorder area, tell me more about that. Tell me about what you're seeing in young people in this area.

Speaker 1: 14:41

Just that it starts very early, I think, um a puberty. It seems to be um a significant time for people, I think, going through those body changes and also normally that coincides with people starting high school. Um, and it's just a really vulnerable time, I think, for the brain obviously, in particular with all the changes that it goes through at that age and also that transition from primary to high school, the different expectations in education wise, friend, wise, you might be changing schools. There's a lot going on and, yeah, those body ideals that, um, a lot of young people are aspiring to be like and obviously that changes, I think, with the trends at the time ideals that aren't achievable for people and seeing that all the time.

Speaker 2: 15:33

Yeah, it's hard, yeah it is. And are there any indicators that parents could be looking out for that? You know unhealthy thinking or you know sort of those indicators that might mean that, down the track, we could be presenting with, you know unhealthy thinking or you know sort of those indicators that might mean that, down the track, we could be presenting with, you know, an eating disorder? Is there anything that parents should be looking for?

Speaker 1: 15:52

I really wish there was that five steps that you could do or five things to monitor, but I just I feel like there's that fine line between living normal life and being over our teenagers and kids and that helicopter parenting and worrying about every single thing that they're doing. I think, honing into what you're worried about and what's causing that worry and what's causing that worry, and, if you're, I think that actually the biggest thing is to notice any changes, like just be mindful of changes that are happening with young people, Because I think when people look back or in hindsight because hindsight's a beautiful thing, it's a wonderful- thing, yeah, it's the best thing.

Speaker 1: 16:39

Yeah, they'll say things like you know, we noticed that she was in a room a lot more, or she started running three times a week, or he started not coming down for dinner he didn't want to eat with us, or, you know, he was not going to football or he wasn't going with his friends as much anymore. So, and like I said, there's no way to explore that and I know sometimes teenagers are not wanting to talk to their parents, but being curious where possible, and if you do get shot down, just go back to them later and ask them again and try and gently express why you're concerned, just trying to be mindful, I suppose. But I don't. I feel, yeah, it's hard for parents to spot because it's a, it's a type of well.

Speaker 1: 17:28

With any mental health illness, I think, or issue, obviously there's a lot of shame that's associated with most of it. So it's often quite secret, um, and the person feels that shame and embarrassment and doesn't want to talk about it. So the illness actually gets really good at, you know, keeping those things hidden. So it's hard. It's a hard question to answer.

Speaker 2: 17:52

It's a hard issue to deal with, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So in your work, nicola, I know that one of the things that you're really passionate about is building that rapport and you know, through empathy and through compassion and really good listening, which I dare say is part of your nursing background, as well, and you know the importance of building that relationship with your patients so that they can feel they're in a really safe space to talk to you about these things.

Speaker 1: 18:21

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think my mum, when I was growing up, worked in aged care and I'll never, ever forget her saying this, but she always used to say that she always treated people how she would want her family to be treated and it was like her core belief at work and it was always what she said about everything, Whether you were with friends or at work or going into a working career. That was her advice and that's something that I hold very close to my heart and I think, yeah, that's always at the front of my mind when I meet a person and I, yeah, when that rapport building it's about meeting the person where they're at, thinking about how they've put where they're presenting. What does that look like? What do I know about the person? How can I make them feel comfortable in the moment, thinking about the environment, all of those things?

Speaker 2: 19:18

Yeah, and that's just so incredibly important to all your patients and just a beautiful place to start, isn't it? You know to build that trust and compassion. Yeah, one of the other things that I understand you use in your work is trauma-informed approaches.

Speaker 1: 19:36

Tell me about trauma, yeah, I suppose I just I was thinking that when you, when I was talking, I was listing some of those things. But yeah, trauma-informed care to me is having an understanding that people go through things that are difficult and that could mean different things to everybody. So I think the basis of it for me is not making an assumption, coming into things openly, trying to ask people, maybe beforehand, before they come and see me. Is there anything that's been difficult about seeing people before? Um, you know, is there anything in the room that we can bring in that might make you feel more comfortable thinking about those things, like in the environment? What can I do? Um, what hasn't been helpful before?

Speaker 2: 20:27

what kind of things might people ask to say that would make me feel better if you had that in the room? Is there anything specific?

Speaker 1: 20:35

Just that. Everybody's different. So sometimes people, I always have like fidget toys in the room. Anyway, I've always got pens and paper. Do you have a weighted?

Speaker 2: 20:45

blanket. I've heard that's really good. I don't actually. But yeah, people in different work settings I have had that, but not at my office at the moment.

Speaker 1: 20:49

No, we don't actually but yeah, people in different work settings I have had that, but not at my office at the moment? No, we don't have that um. So yeah, comforting things, the things that you and also like thinking about the lighting or the temperature or if there is a window, like just thinking about those things and asking what people's preferences are, and I think, unfortunately, like a lot of experience.

Speaker 2: 21:14

People experience trauma and it is um significantly associated with other mental health issues and substance abuse how do you look after yourself in you know, some of the work that you do, which you know no doubt has its moments of heaviness?

Speaker 1: 21:31

yeah, I'm actually like a massive advocate for clinical supervision, so that's definitely something that I get regularly. I do that with people, um, that obviously I feel comfortable with and, um, I've got a trusting relationship with because that's important as well, and I think going out and just being mindful of you know how you're feeling after the day. You know I take a lot of time with friends. I've got my family and that's probably the key things that I do. To be honest, I think doing the work I do it just makes me so grateful for what I have and where I'm at in life and how things have turned out for me, and I feel very privileged.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Yeah, yeah, we've really got to be grateful in many ways because I guess mental health is something that can strike at any time. Well, actually I want to rephrase that, because that's something I wanted to talk through with you the term mental health. We've all got mental health right, so it's not mental health is not a negative or a positive, it's mental health is just, is right. Yeah, so how do you describe? Is it poor mental health? Is it mental health illness? Is it mental health wellbeing? At the other end, what is the terminology? How do you refer to it?

Speaker 1: 22:54

I think it depends on the situation that I'm in and I'd probably. Obviously I work for a mental health service and I've worked for mental health services in the past, but I don't think I actually use the term if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 23:08

Like I try and listen to what the person says is going on for them, how they identify of, how they talk about what's going on for them. But also what I like to hold on to is the fact that there's a person there. They're not anorexia, they're not depression, they're not those things. They're just experiencing those things. And you're right, like mental health. Everybody has mental health and it could be good. It could be that you're struggling and it's not so good, but I think it's more personalised. I think we just get caught up on the terminology, but I definitely go for what the patients identify with, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 23:49

Oh, it makes perfect sense, absolutely identify with. If that makes sense, oh, it makes perfect sense Absolutely. And what about, I guess, medication and helping the, I guess, the neurochemistry or neuro biochemistry of the brain. Can you tell us a bit more about what goes on in the brain with all the different hormones and I don't know what are they called Chemistry, brain chemistry? Is that something that you focus in on?

Speaker 1: 24:15

um, yeah, and I think you know, medication definitely has its place. I think, um, I used to work with a psychiatrist and every assessment that we did together, he always used to say, um, that medication was like 30 of it, it, therapy was 30% of it and then 40% of it was what happens outside of that, and I think that's really true. I think for some people, they need the medication. Their chemical imbalance or whatever's happening in that person's brain, they can't do without it. Some people need it for a period of time and then they can come off it without it. Some people need it for a period of time and then they can come off it, and then you know, it's different for everybody. Um, and I think understanding the brain obviously is a is a complex thing yeah, it is um, and the more you know, the less you know.

Speaker 2: 25:02

I think the brain is out there, yeah, yeah so yeah, and I think people respond differently.

Speaker 1: 25:09

I think what I hear a lot is I feel like sometimes, when people are doing therapy, it's like if things aren't changing, then oh you need, we need to think about medication. Or if it's medication and that's not working, it's thinking about therapy, um, and it's that balance between if the person is mentally unwell or struggling or not coping, what? Like thinking about their capacity to be making decisions or where they're at in their journey, um, but also not trying to force things on people or push things and rolling with that. Where they're at is where it definitely is. Well, in my, in private practice, I feel like that's definitely the case. Like you can, I can talk to somebody, do an assessment, think about all the elements, think about what's been helpful for them before and really listen to where they're at, um, yeah, and what they're open to, because if people have had negative experiences with medication, they might not be willing to even think about it as an option.

Speaker 2: 26:20

So, yeah, how can we? I guess and I don't know, that you'll have an answer to this, but maybe you do, I hope you will how can we best support someone who's going through some sort of mental health illness? What's the best thing that parents or family members, friends, can do to support that person?

Speaker 1: 26:39

I think for me, being curious, being genuinely interested in where people are at, I always think this one are you okay? Day comes round, it's all right asking are you okay? But just that genuineness, because people, humans, we know when people aren't genuine and we know when people are not interested really or they've got other things going on the mind. Not that we're not interested really, but if you're distracted and you've got other stuff going on. But just yeah, being genuine, checking in with people and just thinking about how you would, how I this is my mum coming back out now and my corvallis, we love your mum but thinking about if you yourself were struggling, how would you want someone to approach you?

Speaker 1: 27:24

What would you want somebody to ask? What would you want? How would you want somebody to respond? And obviously that's different for everybody and not everybody's going to be the same, but I think we have some common like common things that we would want and just if you're going to ask somebody, then you want to be listened to, I imagine yeah, and I wonder also that persistence as well, because, um, sometimes the first time you're asked you go, oh, you know, fine, fine, fine, but you know it's the third or fourth ask.

Speaker 2: 27:51

Just checking in again. Are you sure you're asked you go? Oh, you know, fine, fine, fine, but you know it's the third or fourth ask, just checking in again. Are you sure you're okay? You know the curiosity and the compassion, and I guess that all takes time, doesn't it?

Speaker 2: 28:01

You know it's taking the time to treat other people with respect, and you know humanistic, which is a word that you use, that your approach is humanistic, which is a beautiful term. Tell me more about mental health and some of the other things that you're seeing. So obviously, eating disorders is an area of specialty for you, but can we talk about anxiety and depression? I?

Speaker 1: 28:23

feel like anxiety and depression. So not to bring it back to eating disorders, I know we will move away from that, but I feel like a lot of mental health issues co-occur alongside each other or intertwine with each other. So a lot of what I see as well is emotional dysregulation and along with that, I think if a person is struggling to function within the social norms or is more emotionally expressive than what society expects, they often do feel depressed because, again going back to the should be or there shouldn't be, I think we're, as a society, we're quite perfectionistic anyway. So the person that does well, that doesn't create a force that achieves um and ticks all of the boxes per se um yeah, is really accepted by society and it's what everybody's aspiring to be.

Speaker 1: 29:25

So when you don't fit that norm, you feel displaced and like you don't belong, and then that fuels anxiety. So you might be anxious about whether it's going to school or work because you don't fit in or you don't fit those criteria, um, and then obviously, if you become isolated, then that can lead to depression as well. So I feel like they all intertwine with each other. Obviously, I do see people that just have anxiety or do just have depression, but there's normally interlinks between them.

Speaker 2: 30:01

What do you see as the panacea for all of this? Is there something that, if you could wave your magic wand? Nicola. I'm going to give you a magic wand and you're going to wave it. What would you change? What would you do with that?

Speaker 1: 30:21

That is such a good question. I think immediately what comes to mind is just better access to care. But I feel like, um, obviously that comes with funding and all of those things. Um, obviously, if I was like very godmother then I'd get rid of people's issues yeah take away trauma, take away all of those things and just make it so that everybody could cope healthily and there wasn't any issues.

Speaker 1: 30:52

Tick those society norm boxes? No, I wouldn't want that really. Yeah, that is a hard question. I think, yeah, more access to services, more variety in who is offering those services, and I don't feel like there's any individualised care. I think that's what's a big thing that's missing. I think, obviously, within systems, we have to do what we're funded to do or what the service is funded to do, but I just don't feel I feel like that individual care is what's missing.

Speaker 1: 31:31

And that's what I love about private practice is that, like I was saying before, I get to really think about what's going to work for that person, how I can work with them, pull from my different experience and make that tailored to them. And it's hard because you know, as a government they can only give so much funding. But it's like mental health care plans. I think there's six sessions now and you're like, yeah, six sessions, but if somebody's got complex issues or this has been going on for a long time, or if they need more, there's no flexibility within that. And same, at least, with the eating, eating disorder plan. That's much longer and people can get more sessions.

Speaker 1: 32:16

And if I could, actually if I could wave my magic wand, I would make it say that mental health nurses were included in more medicare rebates as well ah, so at the moment they're not no no, so as a credentialed mental health nurse, I can only offer people Medicare rebates if they've got a chronic disease plan, and I'm not eligible to do that on any of the other plans Interesting because, you know, we've got this.

Speaker 2: 32:45

we're crying out for more mental health practitioners, and here we've got this wonderful resource of mental health nurse that we're not, you know, using to the fullest potential, I guess. But aside from that, what I understand, nicola, though, is that your private services can be easily accessed without referrals and no wait lists. Yeah, yeah, interesting. What do you get the most joy from?

Speaker 1: 33:17

Seeing people building that relationship with people and then seeing that, seeing that relationship grow and also just teaching people new things that they didn't know that they could do and seeing them doing it, seeing them succeed. And don't get me wrong, obviously it doesn't always go that smoothly or it's not a smooth path to that sometimes. But even with just being alongside that person, with the lows, the highs and the bumps and all of that, it's just such a privilege for me to be able to do that with somebody and it's just yeah, it just brings me a lot of joy.

Speaker 2: 33:51

That's a beautiful thing. I want to understand also this idea of hope, because that's one of the themes of our warm table this season, and I do want to understand what hope means to you personally and professionally. But also, how do you work with people during a time when they feel as though they have absolutely no hope or very little hope in their mental state? So how do you help them rebuild that hope, because it's just such an important part of the healing journey.

Speaker 1: 34:29

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:30

But you just can't magic it up. If only, if only you could give that as a tablet, a hope tablet. Um, but how do you, how do you work with people when they, when they have no hope?

Speaker 1: 34:42

I think for me personally, I hold the hope from the beginning, like to me, like I've worked in so many places in so many different areas and with you know clients that have had multiple admissions and are labeled that complex client and feel like they're never going to get better or they feel like they've tried a lot of things. So I personally hold the hope from the beginning for the client. Whether they see it or not, or whether we talk about that from the beginning or not, I always hold that hope for them. Because I always think when people are presenting to you for help, every presentation is a new time. It doesn't matter what's happened before, it doesn't matter what they were like before. At that point in time they're wanting help, help. So that gives me hope. Does that make sense? So, yeah, and so holding that from the beginning.

Speaker 1: 35:35

And then, when that therapeutic relationship builds, obviously you get to know the person more. You get to know what their strengths are, um, and where they've been in the past and where they're at now, and then you can reflect on that with them and reflect on their experiences and you know you drop those installs of hope along the way. They might not realize it's hope or that sounds like a weird thing to say, but they might not realize that it's hope at the time, but I think it's always in my mind and then when they're in a place where they feel like they can be hopeful because obviously what you wouldn't want it to come across as a person's at the worst moment in their life and you're like, don't worry, it changes just around the corner.

Speaker 2: 36:21

I've seen so many people in the same situation. They've come out of it, so you will too.

Speaker 1: 36:27

So yeah, it's not any conversation like that with a client at all.

Speaker 2: 36:32

No, you don't go in there like Pollyanna or anything like that. No, but it is. It's holding that, I guess, the quiet hope inside you, knowing that there's tools and strategies and a different moment in time.

Speaker 1: 36:45

And a big actually change I feel like in the workspace is peer support workers that obviously have that lived experience and are on their recovery journey and have recovered and are coming into work with the space and can offer that support to people as well and, I think, working alongside those people, because I think if you work in the same area all the time and you're seeing the same things, it's easy to get pretty jaded or feel like nobody's making any change. But I think what we forget to think about in the moments are the people that we don't see coming back when we're in certain areas. And then, yeah, some of the peer workers that I've worked with, just talking to them about their experience of recovery and all the people that they know have recovered, Like it's eye-opening and you just think, yeah, actually it's really positive.

Speaker 2: 37:39

And that's a really nice thing to hear, because we don't hear that often, I know. No, we often hear about the mental health crisis that we're in, which there's no question that you know there is a mental health crisis. There's no question that mental health is directly correlated with many things that are going on in society that give everybody some real unease, but there are stories of people who've recovered and who then can go on to support others too.

Speaker 1: 38:09

Yeah, and I think when people have that understanding, or you move around and you do different things, you really actually open your eyes to that.

Speaker 2: 38:22

And would you say that pretty much everyone is touched by mental health in some way?

Speaker 1: 38:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, and I think, even if you're a person that doesn't have a history in your family or nothing bad has ever happened which I don't know I never, ever actually met anybody in my personal life or my work life that that's happened for, but maybe those people exist it doesn't mean to say that you know an adverse event isn't going to happen to you that could significantly impact the way that you're coping.

Speaker 2: 38:53

Can you talk me through some of that, and I guess it's a magic question here. This is a million dollar question. What are some of the triggers for mental health episodes to happen?

Speaker 1: 39:06

Loss and grief is a big one. You know, relationship issues or interpersonal difficulties, um, the loss of a relationship sometimes is a tipping point point for people and sometimes I think, if things happen one after the other and people aren't expecting those things or they're in a vulnerable place and then something else happens, it can be really hard to then keep going and to keep on top of that. Um, obviously, for a lot of people that I see, it's childhood stuff or it's stuff that's happened in their childhood. That's a trauma, yeah, and then, like I said, that tipping point seems to be with adolescence, in that change in hormones, the change in high school, that transition. I think it's a vulnerable parts of people's lives. That's probably the best way to explain it actually and that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2: 40:03

You know, when you're at your most vulnerable, you let things in. Yeah, so, coming back to hope, what brings you hope personally?

Speaker 1: 40:14

Like the work that I do and the work that I see happening, the people that I work with. Like I work with some incredible clinicians, doctors, nurses, psychologists, the young people that I work with. That makes me feel hope. My personal life outside of all of that, that makes me feel hope. My personal life outside of all of that. Like my family, obviously I've mentioned my mum a couple of times. She's a beacon of hope to me and she's had her own challenges throughout her life and obviously witnessed some of those. And hope to me is never losing sight of the fact that things happen in moments and it's not always going to be that way. And I say that from a place of privilege and not feeling vulnerable right now. But, yeah, just knowing that time doesn't stand still, our emotions don't stand still, that kind of philosophy.

Speaker 2: 41:15

Nicola, thank you so much for joining me around the warm table. It's been a wonderful, I think, a wonderful conversation where I've learned a lot and also, you know, hopefully reassuring for a lot of people regarding mental health, regarding some of the societal norms that are, you know, unachievable and that are fuelling some of our mental health issues, and maybe we can, you know, sort of recreate the norm for what society has. I think maybe that's what I'd do with a magic wand is recreate the norm so that every one of us feels welcome and included in a society where, you know, we'll have less mental health and mental stress.

Speaker 1: 41:59

Yeah. No, thank you so much for having me. It's been really good.

Speaker 3: 42:07

Hi, I'm Kelly Riley, creator and head coach of Females Over 45 Fitness, or FOF as we are fondly called. Our studio is located in Victoria Park and we are also online all across Australia. At FOF, our members range in age from 45 through to 84 years of age at the moment. They're amazing examples of hope. Let's meet one of our members now and be inspired by her story examples of hope.

Speaker 4: 42:36

Let's meet one of our members now and be inspired by her story. Hi, my name is Jade, I'm in my early 50s and I work as a Senior Process Designer Administrator for an information and data management company. The last fitness centre I attended lacked energy and after giving FOF a go I realised it had great energy, so I decided to join. I train for three hours a week over three days at FOF. I enjoy the workouts, as the music is loud, the atmosphere is good and it's great to have a laugh with like-minded women. There is also flexibility in the class timetable, which is a great bonus. Hope for me means that I live a long, happy, healthy life, enjoying everything that comes my way.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Thanks for joining us around the warm table. My warm table is produced, hosted and edited by me, sonia Nolan. It's my way of amplifying positivity and curiosity in our community. I invite you to share this conversation with family and friends and follow my warm table podcast on Facebook, instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can subscribe and follow my Warm Table on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and maybe even leave a review, because it helps others to find us more easily.